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Why TM has problems Ramming, and basic maths. (Read 4978 times)
Muddeh
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Why TM has problems Ramming, and basic maths.
03/22/18 at 04:47:42
 
It seems the topic shifted more towards how to balance lights and heavies rather than if rams should be a part of the game. On that note, ramming definitely isn't what upsets the balance. As stated, the balance is most dependent on dodging ability and the varying power/regeneration time of special weapons. Other things like ram damage, AA energy, map layout, staggering ability etc. all factor in but far less.

†Adonael wrote on 03/21/18 at 13:07:19:
In a furball in TMX, be it deathmatch or team death match the ony time a small car like that shines is taking hits on distracted opposition. And how they factored in the tyoe of vehicle in TMX, more so than they used to, made Reaper an heavy target for easy kills.

The argument of skill does come into play, but if you removed that factor, I can almost grantee with equally skilled players Reaper would always loose. Thus every time you play as reaper you are always playing a heavy disadvantage.

Sorry, but this is just an overgeneralization that is untrue in most cases. I'll assume you're talking about rooms with equally-skilled players, since the topic of balance is moot with varying levels of skill. In regards to DM, solely focusing on lightweights (especially as a heavy) is not a good strategy.

First, they have the speed an mobility to pick their own fights, so it's usually better to wait for them to bring the fight to you. Second, there's a limited number of weapons and specials in the game that are considerably effective against skilled lightweights, and you'll have to lengthen your weapon routes going far off the beaten path rather than fighting heavier vehicles which are vulnerable to a wider range of weapons. Third, lightweights have more survivability being able to control health and potentially shield more (if you're Kamikaze or lighter).

Lightweights are actually stronger in DM than TDM because they often get more free reign, among other reasons (especially their lack of points yield if targeting them with carnage scoring rules). The only real good motivation to single out lightweights in DM is if you're way behind in points and want to throw a Hail Mary hoping to expend as little inventory as possible for a full-health kill, or if the lightweight is building a killstreak and need to send them back to the respawn screen to nullify their bonuses for each kill.

As for TDM, lightweights thrive in 1v1 scenarios but it's more difficult to get these types of isolated situations against teams that are well in-sync. A lightweight's biggest weakness is being outnumbered since when fire is coming from multiple directions it's a lot harder to drive at angles necessary to avoid otherwise consistently-dodgeable weapons, and it's easier to get staggered and be unable to make a getaway. As a result, lightweights tend to function best in a supportive role rather than leading the offensive charge.

In a 1v1 situation where a Reaper is facing a Warthog (the lightest vs. the heaviest) I would much rather be playing as the Reaper. Consider that as Grimm in TMBO, it takes four specials to kill a heavy from full health. In TM 2012, two specials is all it takes. Warthog's specials are next to useless against Reaper and it can be a struggle as Warthog to even directly face a Reaper to get a reticle lock due to its turning speed.

With all that said, in no way am I trying to say that TM 2012's balance, or the way they achieved it is admirable. All I'm saying is, the gap in balance between lightweights and heavies is really overblown because of the perceptions that were developed just weeks after launch.

Malefactor wrote on 03/21/18 at 20:18:19:
Either way, it’s frickin’ hard as admitted by every dev team that’s tried, and it’s apparentl in every version of Twisted Metal because the big cars have ruled in every version. Especially TMX.

It's a minor thing, but heavies don't outright rule the game. Shadow, Outlaw and Junkyard Dog are generally the three vehicles that occupy the top tier. Most people would call Shadow and Outlaw midweights based on their size, armour class and the fact they deal as much ram damage as most midweights, but myself and other veterans identify those two uniquely as mid-heavies. JYD is typically considered a heavy but often plays more like vehicles in midweight classes due in part to its mobility.

Again, it's minor since technically Axel rules TMBO and a couple midweights could be considered in the top tier of TM2 online, so it's not like TM 2012 is unique in the regard. It's true that in all three games heavies are mostly situated in the upper half of the roster. TMHO is a bit of an exception, but since playing like a pussy was that game's bread and butter and the top vehicles were mostly ones with specials that were easy to abuse through walls/objects, it doesn't really matter since it was practically broken in the first place.

Malefactor wrote on 03/21/18 at 20:18:19:
Adonael hit many of the issues on the head above, but to get to bare basics, a ram is a weapon. What’s more, it’s an infinite weapon. Unlike other weapons in the game, it is not based on regeneration or pick up abilities.

This NECESSARILY means the cars with a more powerful ram, an infinite weapon, will have a substantial advantage in combat.

Ram isn't infinite when you factor in turbo, and add in turbo dash which depletes half of your turbo each use (and is practically a necessity to use in order to ram a skilled player). But really, that doesn't even matter because it completely ignores the point that, once again, you'll rarely ever get rammed if you're decent at playing lightweights. It's like saying if heavies had the sole ability to use the infinite machine guns, then heavies would somehow have a massive advantage over lightweights. It doesn't matter because you'll hardly ever deal any substantial damage.

I get that during the initial month or two when nobody was skilled and lag was often a struggle, the game could feel like bumper cars. Especially on smaller maps, it was easy to wrack up a lot points just by picking a heavy, maintaining speed and nicking clueless players who chose lightweights. But once again, who cares? What we should be concerned about is the end product and how the game plays against skilled players. Stripping elements of combat from the game to try and fix a balancing issue doesn't make sense, especially when ramming isn't even the thing throwing off the balance in the first place.
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« Last Edit: 03/26/18 at 19:33:02 by Magnum »  

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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #1 - 03/22/18 at 05:54:52
 
No, it’s still infinite because it can be done without turbo, and because 90 percent of the time a player has turbo anyway.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #2 - 03/22/18 at 06:14:45
 
Also, and yeah, this is an additional reply, but that' a load of bull rams are rare. Rams are common in TMBO WITH dodging and low power freezes.  They're even MORE common in TM2 with dodging and MORE powerful freezes.

They're even MORE common in a game with nerfed dodging and the most powerful freezes the game has ever seen.

You're making the same mistake you always do.  You make a comparison between a pro and a newb and assume it matters in balance.  IT DOESN'T MATTER. Against two players of equal skill, the amount of rams again levels out, and you have the same problem. One car has an infiinite attack possiblity against a weaker car, and it equates to a permanent and difficult to balance distinction.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #3 - 03/22/18 at 06:24:27
 
Malefactor wrote on 03/21/18 at 23:11:07:
Because I didn't care and was frankly irritated at you for implying I made it up. Yes it's true. He told it to us in a chatroom and once on his Twitter feed.  If you don't believe it I don't really care.
I just wanted to know where he said but thanks for the information. I will choose to believe it because it explains why in TM1 you can deal big damage with rams from the front but not in TM2.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #4 - 03/22/18 at 08:58:20
 
Malefactor wrote on 03/22/18 at 05:54:52:
No, it’s still infinite because it can be done without turbo, and because 90 percent of the time a player has turbo anyway.

Yeah sure. Ramming without turbo is infinite. Just like machine guns are. Whoop dee doo. Good luck ever trying to ram a lightweight as a heavy if you're crawling around without turbo. You know better than to grasp at straws and pretend that's somehow a reason ramming shouldn't be part of the game.

And again, you're entirely ignoring turbo dash which is a necessity to land frequent rams as a heavy. Being able to close the gap rapidly at the cost of half your meter is usually the only way a heavy can lay a ram on a skilled lightweight, and turbo definitely becomes a limited resource on smaller maps with a large number of players. Getting caught dead in the water without turbo as a heavy is practically a death sentence, and isn't an uncommon occurrence.

Malefactor wrote on 03/22/18 at 06:14:45:
Also, and yeah, this is an additional reply, but that' a load of bull rams are rare. Rams are common in TMBO WITH dodging and low power freezes.  They're even MORE common in TM2 with dodging and MORE powerful freezes.

They're even MORE common in a game with nerfed dodging and the most powerful freezes the game has ever seen.

Ermm, what are you talking about? I never said rams are rare. I said only accidental contact ram damage is rare, and heavies delivering solid rams to skilled lightweights is rare. With all due respect, you're making the same mistake you always do. You fail to read and grasp what the topic is before responding. Of course rams are frequent in TM 2012. Why would it make sense for me to argue in their favour if they weren't a substantial part of the game?

I assume your reference to freezes was directed towards vehicles of all weights, so I won't beat you up for it since it's stupid in the context of ramming lightweights. After all Reaper, Crimson Fury and Kamikaze can typically tap out of freeze before they even loose momentum, and even if they're caught flatfooted it's still easy to tap out and toss up a shield.

Malefactor wrote on 03/22/18 at 06:14:45:
You make a comparison between a pro and a newb and assume it matters in balance.  IT DOESN'T MATTER. Against two players of equal skill, the amount of rams again levels out, and you have the same problem. One car has an infiinite attack possiblity against a weaker car, and it equates to a permanent and difficult to balance distinction.

Are you not aware that a scenario of someone just choosing a heavy and driving hoping to collide with novice players to score points is an example of a newb playing against other newbs, hence being on the same skill level? Did you think I was providing an example of some pro strats or something?

Regardless of what you thought of that scenario, you're still fundamentally wrong. Balance does not remain the same no matter the skill level of equal-skilled players. If a vehicle, weapon or tactic has a lower skill floor but also a lower skill ceiling, it'll be easier to use by a newb against other newbs but less effective for a pro to use against other pros. In contrast, if it has a higher skill floor but also a higher skill ceiling, it'll be harder to use by a newb against other newbs but more effective for a pro to use against other pros.

Since it seems like a hard concept for you, here's an example. In the early months of TM 2012 people complained tons wanting Meat Wagon to be nerfed since its low skill floor made it easy to pick up and dominate with early on. Without ever being substantially nerfed, Meat Wagon is now among the worst vehicles since it turns out it didn't have a very high skill ceiling and practically nobody mains it anymore.

In the case of heavies ramming lightweights we have a pairing of the skill of being a heavy driving slowly towards a target to make contact with it (low skill floor but low skill ceiling) vs. the skill of being able to control the speed of lightweights and use it to your advantage rather than bumping into opponents and taking damage (high skill floor but high skill ceiling). Hence, the balance is has shifted and ramming doesn't upset the light vs. heavy balance anymore now that players have improved. It's really not that difficult of a concept to understand.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #5 - 03/22/18 at 15:30:43
 
Holy hell it is not fundamentally wrong, but rather than deal with more pages from you, if you're arguing that accidental rams are rare, but you admit intentional rams are viable, then the whole last few sections of replies were pointless and off topic.

Then it goes back to basic math.  The heavies have a weapon, that works when used intentionally, that is infinite for the basic and near infinite with the turbo.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #6 - 03/22/18 at 16:50:52
 
Malefactor wrote on 03/22/18 at 15:30:43:
replies were pointless and off topic.



Actually we are quite off topic from the subject of whether or not you can run a TMX lan server.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #7 - 03/22/18 at 17:34:47
 
It'd clearly be for the better to quit this if you can't tell the difference between a skillful flank or turbo dash ram in contrast to newbs playing bumper cars.

I must say though, your infinity argument literally fulfills the definition of insanity. Regardless that you can 'infinitely' (not really infinite, but I've made my point so I'll just use the word in a figurative sense) attempt to trudge over a skilled lightweight as a heavy, it won't change the fact that you'll rarely ever ram them and it will never impact, let alone substantially upset the balance. You know it's complete bullshit and you're making yourself look dense by harping on 'infinite' ram like it's your trump card as to why ramming is somehow a bad thing.

Also, much agreed this is entirely off-topic. We can all blame Mosh for this. Cheesy I enjoy talking about mechanics (even if to a brick wall the majority of the time here) but I only tend to interject when gross misstatements are made, as there were about ramming in this case. It's constantly the same charade but it's entertaining nonetheless.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #8 - 03/22/18 at 18:40:14
 
Muddeh
Adonael


I'll assume you're talking about rooms with equally-skilled players,
=
The argument of skill does come into play, but if you removed that factor


A lightweight's biggest weakness is being outnumbered since when fire is coming from multiple directions it's a lot harder to drive at angles necessary to avoid otherwise consistently-dodgeable weapons, and it's easier to get staggered and be unable to make a getaway. As a result, lightweights tend to function best in a
supportive
 
role rather than leading the offensive charge.
=
In a furball in TMX, be it deathmatch or team death match the only time a small car like that shines is taking hits on distracted opposition


Consider that as Grimm in TMBO, it takes four specials to kill a heavy from full health. In TM 2012, two specials is all it takes.


Muddeh I've never once seen you play TMBO.


Axel rules TMBO


True, but again something you haven't had any experience in.


you'll rarely ever get rammed if you're decent at playing lightweights.


This is only in cases in small number rooms. Have you ever played in a full room of chaos? There's a decent ammount of rams, accidental or otherwise.


nobody was skilled


Some of us including myself played this game for several months passed that, and actually devoted time to it, much like yourself, before we jumped ship. Don't assume all of our opinions are based off of that first week or month.



And on a side note, where did the whole rant about mid-weights have anything to do with the balance of ram damage Heavy VS Lite?
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #9 - 03/22/18 at 21:52:25
 
Look, it makes logical sense. You're literally the only player I've ever heard of who doesnt get what I'm saying, but admittedly, you never do. Incog got it. ESP got it. Blizzard gets it. Jaffe for all his problems got it. Only Muddeh, the endless arguer, struggles so much with basic math.

You even contradict yourself.

Muddeh : I love bone crunching rams. One of the things TM2012 definitely got right!

Player : Really? You enjoy doing them?

Muddeh : I think. To be fair they almost never happen.

Player :?! %#$&?!


I don't think you ever hear your own thoughts.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #10 - 03/23/18 at 01:08:14
 
In response to Adonael, there's really nothing relevant or substantive for me to reply to. The overgeneralizations and lack of reasoning beyond just standalone statements lead nowhere I haven't touched on. Sorry, but the burden of proof doesn't lie on me. This mostly isn't even on the topic of ramming to begin with.

Even several months in there were still very few decent players that didn't mostly play ranked. At that time I was in a clan of 12 or so players that a large fraction of the community considered to be the best in the game, but even then I still consider my former self to have been mediocre at best and accident-prone with lightweights in comparison to modern day, where instances where I (and other skilled lightweight users) make accidental contact are few and far between. Take my word for it. If accidental contact really was an issue after all this time then I'd be frustrated by it and in the same camp as you, but it just isn't the case.

In regards to midweights, I went into a bit of detail there because although I wanted to correct a misstatement, I didn't want to come off as nitpicky. I even went out of my way to present why 'heavies rule the game' is valid in a different context. From my tone and reassurance, it was pretty evident it wasn't anything close to a rant. Believe it or not, I'm not just here to cause conflict and start shit.  Smiley

Malefactor wrote on 03/22/18 at 21:52:25:
Look, it makes logical sense.

Keep saying the same thing over and over all you want. It doesn't make it any more true.

Malefactor wrote on 03/22/18 at 21:52:25:
You even contradict yourself.

I'll just copy and paste the same thing since you can't seem to process information.

Muddeh wrote on 03/22/18 at 08:58:20:
Ermm, what are you talking about? I never said rams are rare. I said only accidental contact ram damage is rare, and heavies delivering solid rams to skilled lightweights is rare. With all due respect, you're making the same mistake you always do. You fail to read and grasp what the topic is before responding. Of course rams are frequent in TM 2012. Why would it make sense for me to argue in their favour if they weren't a substantial part of the game?

To make it even more abundantly clear, there's four lightweights and four heavies in the game. That means there's 16 different vehicle combinations of heavy and lightweight. There are 15 vehicles in the game with 120 different vehicle pairings (assuming the same vehicle can also fight the other on the opposite team). Remove the 16 light/heavy combinations, and you're left with 104 instances where a vehicle is ramming another and aren't a combination of lightweight and heavyweight. 104 instances are more common, the other 16 are not. Really, it's not hard to grasp.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #11 - 03/23/18 at 02:02:38
 
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #12 - 03/23/18 at 03:36:08
 
No, it's true because it's true.  I don't need to MAKE it more true, or say it more.

The fact that I keep saying it to drill it through the carbon fibers strangling your brain is a separate issue entirely.

It's basic math.  You're arguing 2 + 2 = 3.


Edit:  Tuesday Throwdown Challenge: 

State what EXACTLY you are trying to argue in reply after reply in two sentences or less.

GO!!!!!
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #13 - 03/23/18 at 08:31:26
 
Say it again. Repeat the exact same thing like you've said the last five posts without reasoning or even any response to counterargument. You've said a lot of really stupid shit here and tried to pass off idiotic assertions as fact, but this is really the mountain you're willing to die on? I expected more from you.

The whole point is repeated in nearly all of my posts and as short as a sentence or less. I purposefully repeated it a few times for you since I know you're pretty slow, but even I didn't think you're as retarded as you're demonstrating. If you can't put on your big-boy pants and figure out for yourself what you think you're even arguing against, then I'll stop egging you on. It's fun seeing what type of bullshit you can come up with when you ignore the substance of any of my posts, but when you just repeat the same shit it's far less entertaining.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #14 - 03/23/18 at 14:05:00
 
Muddeh  you do the same thing in paragraphs. Plus inserting things as "fact" when it is either an assumption or opinion of your own..

If that's the case you both are retarded.

...


Annnnd this is why we can't discuss mechanics in TMA.
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« Last Edit: 03/23/18 at 15:06:28 by †Adonael »  

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