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Why TM has problems Ramming, and basic maths. (Read 4977 times)
Muddeh
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #15 - 03/23/18 at 15:37:23
 
On the contrary, little of what I say is based purely in fact. That's the nature of talking about balancing out mechanics like ramming. It's based in logic, and all Malefactor seems capable of doing is mashing facts together without applying any logic to it and then claiming some idiotic assertion to be fact because of it. When it's pointed out there's no correlation between those facts, he shuts down and just repeats his mishmash of facts over and over as if it means something since he's seemingly incapable of critical thinking.

It's totally fine to have a different opinion, as long as there's reasoning behind it and you are able to respond to counter-argument against it. Mr. Malefactor certainly has his opinions, but plugs his ears repeating his same opinion in the face of criticism instead of actually responding to it. He doesn't know what he's arguing against since he proves time and time again he can't process information, so he just goes on like a broken record repeating the same shit. That's where his special form of retardation lies.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #16 - 03/23/18 at 15:45:50
 
There's something we can agree on at least.  Grin

Even if we can''t agree on the mechanics.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #17 - 03/23/18 at 19:34:47
 
Muddeh wrote on 03/23/18 at 15:37:23:
On the contrary, little of what I say is based purely in fact. That's the nature of talking about balancing out mechanics like ramming. It's based in logic, and all Malefactor seems capable of doing is mashing facts together without applying any logic to it and then claiming some idiotic assertion to be fact because of it. When it's pointed out there's no correlation between those facts, he shuts down and just repeats his mishmash of facts over and over as if it means something since he's seemingly incapable of critical thinking.

It's totally fine to have a different opinion, as long as there's reasoning behind it and you are able to respond to counter-argument against it. Mr. Malefactor certainly has his opinions, but plugs his ears repeating his same opinion in the face of criticism instead of actually responding to it. He doesn't know what he's arguing against since he proves time and time again he can't process information, so he just goes on like a broken record repeating the same shit. That's where his special form of retardation lies.


Logic and fact are practically siblings. If little of what you say is fact then your logic is busted.

Look, I don't have a clue in hell what you're even trying to argue anymore. A lot of that is on you, the writer.

In logical debate a person needs to be able to state their position (premise) in a pithy one sentence statement.

Try it. Maybe this conversation will finally go somewhere.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #18 - 03/23/18 at 20:34:15
 
Just wanted to say a few things on ram damage...

A big part of what made ramming great to begin with back in TM2 wasn't all on the numbers. Actually ramming someone felt great due to the mechanics/physics and you could setup combos with it. As a result TM2 in general revolved around ramming. TMX fail short as usual in that regard. However TMX did bring back higher damage for ramming. Mort was a hardcore TM2PCer and huge supporter of high ram damage. He was the only one in direct contact with Jaffe. If you are happy with what TMX did you could probably thank him for emailing or I mean calling Jaffe while he was with his dad on his deathbed to berate him about higher ram damage.

There is 2 problems that happen with having high ram damage. The first is obviously the balancing act and making sure smaller cars aren't left in the dust which most likely happens by giving shitty specials to bigger cars. The 2nd is that all bigger cars are then forced into ramming. You have to ram or you are gimped so bigger cars and most likely the game in general revolve around ramming. A much better approach is to give cars unique ramming specials with depth to them like TMBO darkside and Yellow Jacket for example.

Whether bigger cars have an advantage over smaller cars via ram damage or don't in TMX doesn't matter. What keeps those 2 problems in check is the fact that TMX is a spam fest.  Ramming doesn't play as big role when it is better to just get the best weapons and unleash. You just throw in rams here and there if there is a good opportunity to add to your barrage without focusing on it. Which results in TMX not revolving around ramming like in TM2 or a TM without the spammy play.

If you want the dumbed down spammy play aka TMX 2.0 then high ramming isn't an issue. If you want a TM without the dumbed down spammy play then high ram damage will make the game revolve around ramming. An ideal TM would have better ram mechanics/physics without the high ram damage. The high ram damage would come from unique ramming specials. This way you end up having better ramming in general without running into those 2 problems.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #19 - 03/23/18 at 21:29:13
 
The Truth wrote on 03/23/18 at 20:34:15:
The high ram damage would come from unique ramming specials. This way you end up having better ramming in general without running into those 2 problems.
As long as the normal rams isn't too tiny and barely noticeable such as TM3, 4 and Black then I can be ok with this.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #20 - 03/25/18 at 09:35:24
 
Muddeh wrote on 03/22/18 at 08:58:20:
Since it seems like a hard concept for you, here's an example. In the early months of TM 2012 people complained tons wanting Meat Wagon to be nerfed since its low skill floor made it easy to pick up and dominate with early on. Without ever being substantially nerfed, Meat Wagon is now among the worst vehicles since it turns out it didn't have a very high skill ceiling and practically nobody mains it anymore.


I'd like to take FULL credit for that Meat Wagon nerf.

When the online demo was around and early in the game launch I was big into the freeze + MW ram + alt special combo, it was his big hitter EZ derp combo weapon and people complained like mad to get it nerfed, so they added that cooldown timer or whatever wait there is after using his alt now.

And then there was the "needed" Axel nerf after we would land like a bazillion crushes in a row. The tears were endless and then he got nerfed too.

But in the end, balance was never my big thing I cared too much about. Fun factor and interesting gameplay mechanics were it, if it had that, balance issues wouldn't have mattered.

On the ramming side of things - why are we even talking about ramming? whatever, its something to talk about!

Yeah TM2PC ramming is all about the setup and combos, it gave bigger cars a lot of options and technically infinite - BUT having turbo added a ton of damage to those rams, so it was helpful. Smaller cars in general did suffer because they couldn't produce that kind of damage out of thin air. Like for example, HH (who was absolute ass, mind you), could do 75% to a possible 100% ram damage on a grasshopper or grimm with a little bit of turbo and ramming the side of their cars. Or if playing teams, two big dogs can destroy ANY car if they both ram either side of a car, and the cost is minimal if anything. This is why in TM2PC it was very doable for a team of 2 to win against a team of 3 or even 2v4 (there is one on youtube) if you had the right rammage on the one team!

For a grimm or grasshopper to do that level of damage on any other car they had to have the weapons or the AA. So they had less tools in their kit because of the ramming disparity. I will say that Spectre was amazing tier IF YOU KNEW how to play her, which was literally no one but me or PX.

Best approach to ramming imo is it should be used as a tool to help setup combos, and not necessarily all about the damage.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #21 - 03/25/18 at 10:52:45
 
RoaDiE wrote on 03/25/18 at 09:35:24:
I'd like to take FULL credit for that Meat Wagon nerf.

When the online demo was around and early in the game launch I was big into the freeze + MW ram + alt special combo, it was his big hitter EZ derp combo weapon and people complained like mad to get it nerfed, so they added that cooldown timer or whatever wait there is after using his alt now.

And then there was the "needed" Axel nerf after we would land like a bazillion crushes in a row. The tears were endless and then he got nerfed too.

But in the end, balance was never my big thing I cared too much about. Fun factor and interesting gameplay mechanics were it, if it had that, balance issues wouldn't have mattered.

On the ramming side of things - why are we even talking about ramming? whatever, its something to talk about!

Yeah TM2PC ramming is all about the setup and combos, it gave bigger cars a lot of options and technically infinite - BUT having turbo added a ton of damage to those rams, so it was helpful. Smaller cars in general did suffer because they couldn't produce that kind of damage out of thin air. Like for example, HH (who was absolute ass, mind you), could do 75% to a possible 100% ram damage on a grasshopper or grimm with a little bit of turbo and ramming the side of their cars. Or if playing teams, two big dogs can destroy ANY car if they both ram either side of a car, and the cost is minimal if anything. This is why in TM2PC it was very doable for a team of 2 to win against a team of 3 or even 2v4 (there is one on youtube) if you had the right rammage on the one team!

For a grimm or grasshopper to do that level of damage on any other car they had to have the weapons or the AA. So they had less tools in their kit because of the ramming disparity. I will say that Spectre was amazing tier IF YOU KNEW how to play her, which was literally no one but me or PX.

Best approach to ramming imo is it should be used as a tool to help setup combos, and not necessarily all about the damage.


To me that's what makes ramming cool. One, the feel (in both TM2 and TMBO when it's Darkside or other ramming vehicles) the sound and visuals give you impact. The huge BOOM makes it feel like something happened.  Yeah, it's aesthetic, but it's nice.  I never felt that in the new game. Ramming with DS in particular was a mondo letdown.

Second, was the setup for future moves.  Twisted Metal 2 was the absolute best at this.  Ramming was a way to link combos, which is a high skill attack.


Now, about TM2's big cars.  It's an odd duck, but essentially what it did for some of the cars was weak sauce their specials . . .  KIND OF (which I said earlier). Take Mr. Slam, his damage from his special is technically high, but because it has to actually grab the enemy car, and be done up close, the difficulty to pull it off essentially just makes it part of the ramming attack. So really Slam's special is just an extension of his ramming, and USUALLY a freeze has to be done because of lag factors.  When I would get hit by Slam online I'd get frozen, rammed and during the course of the damn ram get shovel attacked while machine guns and other weapons were fired.  If you were a small car, it was instant death. If his special had in anyway shape or form been easy to pull off, particularly from a distance, it would have been insanely out of balance.

Hammerhead is kind of the same idea.  He HAS to be close, and because of lag involved, it's really just a ram attack.  Also, SURPRISE, since all big cars can ram, Hammerhead really doesn't have much of a special to begin with.  Remember what I said earlier?  If you have a high damage ram the special has to be weak sauce. Whether on purpose or not, that's exactly what happened with Hammerhead.  His special is his ram.

Axel is just what Axel always is.  He breaks all the Goddamn rules.  This was his first foray into Godhood and he maximizes it in TMBO. His special is weaker than his ram though, which is continuing along the same theme lines already mentioned.

The only regular tier big car that remains is Warthog, and as I'm sure anyone who played TM2 remembers, he's an EXCELLENT choice for a newb precisely because he has amazing armor, powerful rams, and an easy to use high powered special (though in following what I said, as I recall his special is weaker than his rams).

The exception to all of this is Minion, which has ludicrously great EVERYTHING, but with that car, no one would ever claim, nor was he intended to be, balanced.


There you have it.  The best Twisted Metal of all time if you prefer ramming - and the specials are weaker.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #22 - 03/25/18 at 13:45:56
 
I've made the same argument as Malefactor regarding ramming for over a decade, which is just pointing out the fact that the number of potential rams that one car can inflict on another car has no clear limit. Other attacks in the game are different. Special weapons have a clear regeneration rate. Weapon pickups have a clear regeneration rate. This clear distinction between rams vs. other attacks was never addressed in any of those long posts.

Many players such as myself preferred big cars having devastating (and sometimes even ram focused) special weapon attacks for this reason. It is not a mere opinion to say that YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH. You can't have powerful special weapons AND unbounded rams for big cars. Big cars already often dominate Twisted Metal, whether they have unbounded rams or powerful special weapons.

Muddeh, your replies are garbage. I can't even tell what you're arguing. You compare the unbounded nature of rams to machine guns (0_o). You're also all over the place about how important of a role TMX rams play for skilled players, and then when your lack of clarity becomes an issue, you rant about the minimal impact of accidental rams for skilled players. You continually mischaracterize the criticism you're responding to as if people are saying ramming should be removed, but they're only saying it shouldn't dominate the game or wreck the balance. You continually pontificate about how the opinions on balance have changed as TMX evolved, and go on and on randomly about skilled vs. noobs, equally skilled players, experts, noobs vs. noobs, etc., but don't ever tie your ramblings into the actual topic.

One of your worst mental glitches is how you continually write as if rams only effect small cars. I doubt anyone even caught that because your replies are so unfocused.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #23 - 03/25/18 at 20:09:45
 
-Stitches- wrote on 03/25/18 at 13:45:56:
You compare the unbounded nature of rams to machine guns (0_o). .


Good reply, and in response to machine guns . . .

There's many problems with that comparison, but most of all, in almost every Twisted Metal machine guns overheat (again, regen limits), the more powerful ones are pickup based (TMB/TMX), AND all cars have them and can do them equally, ensuring they are NOT an advantage to any one car.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #24 - 03/25/18 at 21:21:29
 
Malefactor wrote on 03/23/18 at 19:34:47:
Logic and fact are practically siblings. If little of what you say is fact then your logic is busted.

Little of what I say is based purely fact. Read, moron.

Malefactor wrote on 03/23/18 at 19:34:47:
Look, I don't have a clue in hell what you're even trying to argue anymore. A lot of that is on you, the writer.

It's not the author's fault if the reader is incapable of processing information from even simple passages, as demonstrated above.

Malefactor wrote on 03/23/18 at 19:34:47:
In logical debate a person needs to be able to state their position (premise) in a pithy one sentence statement.

Try it. Maybe this conversation will finally go somewhere.

I've made it clear many times, in as short as a sentence. You've embarrassed yourself enough by posting this many responses and then saying that you've had no idea what the hell you've been arguing against for all this time. I applaud you finding the discretion to stop and think for a moment though. That's a good step forward! Now, I'm not going to hold your hand through this since it'll be a good learning experience for you. You tell me what my thesis is, and I'll give you a gold star if you're correct!

Malefactor wrote on 03/25/18 at 20:09:45:
There's many problems with that comparison, but most of all, in almost every Twisted Metal machine guns overheat (again, regen limits), the more powerful ones are pickup based (TMB/TMX), AND all cars have them and can do them equally, ensuring they are NOT an advantage to any one car.

No, and the analogy makes sense, trust me. It's not complicated when you understand what the point is to begin with.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #25 - 03/25/18 at 21:28:35
 
The Truth wrote on 03/23/18 at 20:34:15:
Just wanted to say a few things on ram damage...

In terms of the physics, I really wish ramming in TM 2012's online functioned more like it does offline when you ram bots, as there's more feedback for the player with flashes/sparks and more controller vibration which makes rams feel like much more of a solid impact. Also when playing offline, the bots tend to get staggered and deflect away more than player vehicles online are when rammed. Considering the game already is lacking in weapons that greatly stagger opponents, if rams had those properties online they would have more depth in the way of setting up combos and come with even greater satisfaction like they do in TM2.

The third paragraph is a mischaracterization of TM 2012, but that's a whole other topic that's already been beaten to death. There is a greater point to be made out of it though, being that the viability of rams that does exist in the game is due to how powerful close-range pickups and specials are. They naturally draw players into close quarters to make use of those weapons and present players with way more opportunities to be conscious of setting up and dodging rams. I wish instead of stalkers and homing remotes we had more weapons like satellites, but ohwell.

RoaDiE wrote on 03/25/18 at 09:35:24:
I'd like to take FULL credit for that Meat Wagon nerf.

When the online demo was around and early in the game launch I was big into the freeze + MW ram + alt special combo, it was his big hitter EZ derp combo weapon and people complained like mad to get it nerfed, so they added that cooldown timer or whatever wait there is after using his alt now.

And then there was the "needed" Axel nerf after we would land like a bazillion crushes in a row. The tears were endless and then he got nerfed too.

RIP Meat Wagon and 2012 Axel, damned to eternal mediocrity.

It was funny seeing people complain about those vehicles at the time simply because they had such a shallow learning curve. In the end though, their nerfs didn't hurt them that much and they would have both turned out to ultimately have been lower-tier vehicles even in their former state. To an extent adding the fade-out sequence almost buffed Meat Wagon to an extent since it gave him the similar extended shield ability Vermin has, even though its alt special couldn't be used like a shotgun anymore. Nerfing Axel's crush wasn't a big deal in the end since it was so predictable and easy to shield, plus the alt special is typically more useful for staggering opponents at a high level anyways. Good times though.

-Stitches- wrote on 03/25/18 at 13:45:56:
You're also all over the place about how important of a role TMX rams play for skilled players, and then when your lack of clarity becomes an issue, you rant about the minimal impact of accidental rams for skilled players. You continually mischaracterize the criticism you're responding to as if people are saying ramming should be removed, but they're only saying it shouldn't dominate the game or wreck the balance.

Hey there. The whole debate originated from Mosh bitching about the ramming system putting the low-armour cars at a disadvantage in TM 2012. My argument is that if the ramming system were removed and replaced with the system of III, 4 and Black it would strip depth from the game while also not fixing the balancing problem in TM 2012 since skilled lightweights don't suffer from being rammed in the first place (wink wink nudge nudge to a certain somebody). There's not much for me to respond to since nearly all of your post is off-topic from it.

The most relevant thing I could respond to is no clear limit/infinite ability to ram argument. The importance of turbo is still ignored, but from a TM2 angle a player's driving isn't practically crippled without turbo unlike in TM 2012, so I can understand that perspective. It's undoubtedly a limited resource in TM 2012 though, which is the entire context of my posts. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just got the scoop from Malefactor and didn't actually read the thread to know what you're responding to. Don't be lead into battle by the blind is the most I can say, I guess. Smiley
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #26 - 03/25/18 at 21:39:35
 
I'm not embarrassed., and my challenge remains.

If you want to get anywhere you need to be pithier and more focused. I'm not the only one confused by you, which should tell you, the writer, that you've got a lot of work to do.

Stitches reads everything by the way. I didn't discuss ANYTHING with him.  So again, the sign of problems with your style is pretty obvious.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #27 - 03/25/18 at 21:53:25
 
Also, in TM 2012 you can ram without turbo.

If two cars face off without turbo and one can ram infinitely and the other can't, that is an advantage.

The turbo distinction is completely irrelevant to balance.

I'm also tempted to watch your 2012 vids and do a statistical study on how often you don't have turbo compared to how often you do. Something tells me it will be skewed in turbos favor, making your already void argument voider still.

Care to share a link?
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« Last Edit: 03/25/18 at 23:23:17 by Malefactor »  
 
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #28 - 03/25/18 at 22:36:36
 
Muddeh haven't you noticed something?

All of us have played TM since either Twisted 1 or 2. Some of us even religiously. We don't talk to one another and come up with plans to come here and team up on you or anything.

but we all come to the same conclusion.

And it really doesn't have anything to do with liking the old games more, all of us ( with the exception of the truth.) Have been very objective with our post in sharing our opinion.

Nor did we devolve to insults, which is a clear indication of one losing arguments in a debate.

While, I'll never say I'm more experienced in the terms of Stitches or Roadie, these two have been here for a long time and know what they are talking about.

I may get a few things here and there wrong do to a rusty memory, but those of us that have extensive play with all the games can tell the obvious differences.

You love TMX and are Passionate about it. That is ok. I get that's why you defend it so whole heartedly and thats fine.

If you want to back up your claims and change us old players minds, try showing some proof. Compair the games. Play a bunch of TM2, TMB, TMBO so you have data to compair. Show us some research. Put some effort into it instead of slinging insults because you are at a dead end.
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« Last Edit: 03/26/18 at 00:43:00 by †Adonael »  

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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #29 - 03/26/18 at 08:30:58
 
Malefactor wrote on 03/25/18 at 21:39:35:
I'm not embarrassed., and my challenge remains.

That last post was a test of your reading comprehension. I hate to break to you, but you failed miserably. No gold star for you. I'll put this to rest because by now you've managed to totally derail the topic.

Muddeh wrote on 03/25/18 at 21:28:35:
My argument is that if the ramming system were removed and replaced with the system of III, 4 and Black it would strip depth from the game while also not fixing the balancing problem in TM 2012 since skilled lightweights don't suffer from being rammed in the first place (wink wink nudge nudge to a certain somebody).

All of my replies have been based on this argument, mainly focusing on why it is a rarity for lightweights to be subjected to rams. You consistently used arguments that were relevant to your experiences with other TMs, but not relevant to TM 2012. Your insinuation of "infinite" ram is so ridiculous in the context of TM 2012 that others started to assume you had to have been talking about it in the context of TM2, where it actually somewhat makes sense and heavies ramming lightweights is far more frequent.

Every post I made is in the context of TM 2012, and that's made abundantly clear throughout. Because you lack knowledge of TM 2012 and you refuse to process what you're reading to understand the TM 2012 perspective, you stick your fingers in your ears and just continue to relate your experiences with prior TMs. You're so tunnel-visioned and obsessive about insisting your "infinite ram" that you couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Malefactor wrote on 03/25/18 at 21:53:25:
Also, in TM 2012 you can ram without turbo.

Keep saying the same thing over and over all you want. It doesn't make it any more true.

Malefactor wrote on 03/25/18 at 21:53:25:
The turbo distinction is completely irrelevant to balance.

Keep saying the same thing over and over all you want. It doesn't make it any more true.

Malefactor wrote on 03/25/18 at 21:53:25:
I'm also tempted to watch your 2012 vids and do a statistical study on how often you don't have turbo compared to how often you do. Something tells me it will be skewed in turbos favor, making your already void argument voider still.

Well yeah, of course the best of the best will have some amount of turbo in the meter >95% of the time because they know how to pace themselves, include turbo in their weapon routes and not get caught in the middle of combat should their turbo run out. That doesn't mean that turbo doesn't influence decisions of how to traverse the map, when to pick a fight with low turbo and when to use turbo dash at the cost of half your meter. It's more common for low to mid-level players to visibly struggle with turbo management. Here's a good example of a match with such players, where the empty turbo meter was a major factor in three of the deaths.



†Adonael wrote on 03/25/18 at 22:36:36:
You love TMX and are Passionate about it. That is ok. I get that's why you defend it so whole heartedly and thats fine.

I'm long past defending the game and could care very little if people have a negative opinion of it. I actually state that in this very thread before the ramming debate even breaks out. I don't have an issue with people bashing the game. I criticize it myself on a regular basis, even if it is out of love. I have no interest in being an apologist for the game's faults, but when someone clearly doesn't understand things like how ramming is not a substantial factor in the unbalance between lights and heavies, I'm going to correct it.

Malefactor devolved to insults years ago when I had been nothing but civil to him. Any spite is purely directed towards him. I have zero tolerance for his nonsensical god complex in talking about a game he never played at a competitive level and proves he has little understanding of time and time again when trying to act like an expert on the game's balance and mechanics. Though, I do find amusement in knotting him into situations where he has no way to substantiate his claims and resorts to just repeating the same trifle and incorrect shit over and over again like it means anything.
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