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LAN server for TMPS3 (Read 3129 times)
Muddeh
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #15 - 03/05/18 at 09:56:46
 
Even as someone who vocally enjoyed TM 2012, it has always been a conundrum how to show support for it, or if to even show support for it at all. From a consumer advocacy standpoint I've never wanted to show any support for the game simply because of how certain elements were inexcusably butchered. The fact is that of all the ways to communicate displeasure to a company, the best way is to speak in their most fluent language: money. And honestly if TM 2012 were somehow still a trending game, I couldn't recommend that anyone buy it because Sony should not profit for their neglect.

These days, I have less of an issue recommending it and focusing on what the game gets right without needing to apply the asterisk to reference its blunders. Those issues are very well documented, our displeasure is well known and Sony has already made its money. Even though a game like Aliens: Colonial Marines might run smoother than TM 2012, it still belongs to an over-saturated genre and was in no way revolutionary. If you want to play a game along the lines of Colonial Marines, there's dozens upon dozens of games with better execution since. If you want to play a game along the lines of TM, there's practically nothing to stand-in for it. I would rather call attention to what TM 2012 does right, especially considering there are so few vehicle combat games for anyone attempting to make such a game that can be used as a model of what mechanics work and don't work.

For example, I would disagree with about half of the issues Mosh mentioned in the large paragraph of his latest post, and I'm sure he'd probably disagree with me that Talon and Juggernaut are broken since he used those vehicles the majority of the time for the many years he played. Point being, healthy discussion can be had about the game without being an apologist towards the game's faults. Even for someone like myself who still plays, my tolerance of the game's issues shouldn't be construed as acceptance. It's not unreasonable to suggest a decent online vehicle combat game could come out within the next few years, and I'll definitely be on the front lines stressing that TM 2012's mistakes are not (again) repeated.
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Luis
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #16 - 03/06/18 at 02:43:11
 
MoshfieldAsylum wrote on 03/05/18 at 02:14:26:
the ramming system that put low armor cars at a huge disadvantage,
So you want the little damage ram from TM3, 4 and Black to return?
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Malefactor
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #17 - 03/12/18 at 16:16:10
 
Luis wrote on 03/06/18 at 02:43:11:
So you want the little damage ram from TM3, 4 and Black to return?


I know I do.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #18 - 03/12/18 at 18:17:19
 
MoshfieldAsylum wrote on 03/05/18 at 02:14:26:
With all that went wrong with Colonial Marines with its terrible launch, lazy development and underwhelming story, at least it is reliable enough where I know I can have the game run on the first try, find a TDM match online and play a few unbalanced rounds without the game freezing. It's sad how TMX makes Colonial Marines look like WarHawk in comparison.

And @tmfan, yeah, the core concept of TMX is fine. a Twisted Metal game with Team modes by all means should have been a success. I know much was made of homing weapons being too strong and how they couldn't be dodged ('TMX dodging' doesn't count lol) but even if that was fixed the game would still have had issues because of how the classic TM gameplay was simplified and exaggerated, w/ the 1-button freeze/shields, the ramming system that put low armor cars at a huge disadvantage, the 1-hit kill gimmicks (sniper rifle), the obnoxious health truck as if all the health pickups weren't enough... the controls weren't so classic TM either - the way you couldn't use the D-pad to drive, the switching of L2/R2 firing functions... the turbo-dash addition was unnecessary as well, as it forced a sixaxis motion sensor function into the game leaving people without the official sony ps3 controller fucked (although if you used small cars it wouldn't have mattered anyway).

and @marltoro, you would think with about 5 patches TMX would have eventually resembled a finished product like (any PS1 game)


I enjoyed the simplified 1 button freeze shields. I always thought the button combos on TM2/TMB were annoying and needless (and in TM2 they were hard to register at times.) I actually like the controls of TMX, they worked the best in the franchise in my opinion (Sixaxis ramming being the only negative.) I even didn't mind the sniper rifle since it made for some tense moments and was hard to pull off. Even Talon was a fun wrinkle to the gameplay (although Sweet Tooth's flying ability was not.) I also had no issues with the ram damage.

I think that the only major issue I had with the core gameplay was the homing issues (I would say the sixaxis is a minor issue.) The other issues with the core gameplay online were stuff that could have been balanced (Sweet Tooth's flying ability, general exploits, beefing up smaller cars a bit.)

But gameplay issues unrelated to basic balance are a matter of taste and opinion, it is completely unforgivable to not have a game function properly and be playable and have some sense of balancing attempted on a reasonable basis. I would still be playing the game if it fucking worked.
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Malefactor
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #19 - 03/13/18 at 08:16:42
 
Muddeh wrote on 03/02/18 at 05:33:07:
I hate to beat a dead horse over the scale of TM 2012's issues, but in current day its issues with connectivity, lag, and freezes are miniscule in comparison to when the game launched. Typically it's only once in twenty or so lobbies that there's a freeze/disconnect, and the game can almost always handle up to 6v6 without server-side lag. Hit detection is pretty solid and most issues with latency in current day are a result of either a player's internet speed (especially the host's) or having players from a wide range of regions within a single lobby.

With that said, even the persisting issues wouldn't be acceptable in a modern AAA game, and the main reason why things are likely better these days is because how little load there is on the servers. There's still rare but annoying times when not all pickups register, and it will often take a couple or more attempts to join a lobby. But all in all, it hasn't been nearly enough for myself and many others to move past the game, nor in my opinion for someone to not try the game again if the server issues back in the day were the reason they dropped the game. Aside from a few unpopulated indie games there's nothing on the market that even resembles TM, and multiplayer games have been extremely underwhelming for the last few years.


Counterpoint:† Our reborn 2002 server still functions better, and it's a second hand server. 

It really puts 2012's issues in perspective.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #20 - 03/14/18 at 02:37:00
 
There were less variance among the 'SPECIALS' for the vehicles of TMPS3 than TM2, even though the TMPS3 vehicles had two 'SPECIALS'.

No Tornado = Twister

No Electricity = Outlaw

No Crushing = Hammerhead

No Jumping High = Grasshopper

No Grab N Slam = Mr. Slamm

I think the designers either got lazy or they just delivered a half baked product just to get it out.

In TMPS3 Axel's shockwave was used on several vehicles.

Critical Depth was made a year after TM2 and it did have more special variences like a sequel SHOULD OF HAD.

I am tempted though to get back into TMB or TMPS3, the grafix or still great in TMPS3 and still looks fun to play. (Better than all the new crap we see these days).
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Luis
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #21 - 03/14/18 at 05:58:05
 
Thumpy wrote on 03/14/18 at 02:37:00:
No Crushing = Hammerhead

Warthog already has that and Axel made Hammerhead a useless car to have on the roster anymore after he copied the crushing special in TM2 and he did it again in TMB and PS3. The Hammerhead special in Head On was too similar to Grasshopper's special. Axel pretty much ruined this car's TM life.

I find the ram damage in PS3 to be the best in the series because of how realistic it is. There's no reason a motorcycle should only receive a scratch when getting rammed by a dump truck. The small cars just needed more buffs like having the homing toned down which has already been mentioned, while ram damage should be a big car's reward for catching these hard to hit small cars. TM2 ram damage was awesome too but it was only from the sides and back but still better than most others.

About the sniper gun that weapon shouldn't even be in the game.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #22 - 03/14/18 at 16:36:10
 
Luis wrote on 03/14/18 at 05:58:05:
Warthog already has that and Axel made Hammerhead a useless car to have on the roster anymore after he copied the crushing special in TM2 and he did it again in TMB and PS3. The Hammerhead special in Head On was too similar to Grasshopper's special. Axel pretty much ruined this car's TM life.

I find the ram damage in PS3 to be the best in the series because of how realistic it is. There's no reason a motorcycle should only receive a scratch when getting rammed by a dump truck. The small cars just needed more buffs like having the homing toned down which has already been mentioned, while ram damage should be a big car's reward for catching these hard to hit small cars. TM2 ram damage was awesome too but it was only from the sides and back but still better than most others.

About the sniper gun that weapon shouldn't even be in the game.


Realism . . . right. Because in the real world cars can take multiple missile hits AND SURVIVE.

Look, realism always takes a backseat to fun and balance, fact is if you want big ramming, then you're going to have a hard time balancing the game.

As for your other stuff, Hammberhead was in TMHO and Axel was too . . . Hammerhead didn't feel redundant at all.  As long as you tweak it all so that each car still has a uniqueness about it you're fine.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #23 - 03/14/18 at 16:51:17
 
Semi t-bones mustang-> mustang bounces off and keeps driving = realism

I kinda get what you are going for Luis. I preferred ramming in Twisted 2. While yes, you should be able to use ramming as a weapon and the fact it can be fun, in TMX I feel like it was too exaggerated in terms of game balance.

While I wouldn't mind smaller vehicles taking a higher damage when rammed, a one hit kill is way too much.
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Luis
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #24 - 03/14/18 at 19:30:42
 
Malefactor wrote on 03/14/18 at 16:36:10:
As for your other stuff, Hammberhead was in TMHO and Axel was too . . . Hammerhead didn't feel redundant at all.† As long as you tweak it all so that each car still has a uniqueness about it you're fine.

He was just a heavy weight Grasshopper in Head On. They both jump on top of the enemy when there's a rectangle below them. But yeah just like in TM3 and Small Brawl Hammerhead can be in the game as long as Axel doesn't steal the crushing special, destroying any chance of Hammerhead being playable.

I don't know why TM3 and 4 took the low damage ram route but the only reason why I think in TMB the ram damage was so small is because of Darkside's special. They wanted the special to be more unique than the normal rams so they made every car's ram weak. Otherwise that game might have gotten stronger rams but not too strong. I find the fact that some people don't want rams to actually hurt in a car combat ridiculous. While sure realism doesn't always equal perfect in a game but in a genre like this, it makes more sense for rams to be painful. Vigilante 8 has done it and that was a fun game. To me a perfect TM would have strong rams, dodging so small cars can actually compete and being able to break out of freeze when frozen and every car having unique specials.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #25 - 03/14/18 at 20:36:06
 
Luis wrote on 03/14/18 at 19:30:42:
He was just a heavy weight Grasshopper in Head On. They both jump on top of the enemy when there's a rectangle below them. But yeah just like in TM3 and Small Brawl Hammerhead can be in the game as long as Axel doesn't steal the crushing special, destroying any chance of Hammerhead being playable.

I don't know why TM3 and 4 took the low damage ram route but the only reason why I think in TMB the ram damage was so small is because of Darkside's special. They wanted the special to be more unique than the normal rams so they made every car's ram weak. Otherwise that game might have gotten stronger rams but not too strong. I find the fact that some people don't want rams to actually hurt in a car combat ridiculous. While sure realism doesn't always equal perfect in a game but in a genre like this, it makes more sense for rams to be painful. Vigilante 8 has done it and that was a fun game. To me a perfect TM would have strong rams, dodging so small cars can actually compete and being able to break out of freeze when frozen and every car having unique specials.


Actually, Jaffe went on record and said that the ramming power in those early games was a freak accident. Thatís why Black didnít have it. They never intended it that way in the first place.

As for weak ramming, it makes even less sense to have a freakin tank shoot nerf gun bullets which is your only option if you add high damage from ramming with a big car.

In Black, if you wanted high ramming you could be Darkside. If not, Manslaughter. Problem solved.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #26 - 03/19/18 at 02:59:52
 
In my opinion ram damage is critical for a future TM. I understand and accept why ramming was practically nonexistent in the games where vehicles were generally speedier and had less of a sense of weight. Even if ram damage was substantial, it would rarely be viable without without a freeze combo or a Darkside-esque speed boost. However, I am almost certain that vehicles will have more of a sense of weight in a future TM simply because in modern games vehicles don't control like they do in Black, and unless the next game is super toony, the game will likely sport a more realistic physics engine in which ramming would be expected to be a major element of combat.

I don't understand at all why it's being presented as if ram damage somehow unbalanced TM 2012. If you're playing a lightweight and constantly taking ram damage from clipping against opponents, the problem definitely isn't the game's balance. It's your driving ability. As a Reaper it is rare that anyone surprises me with a purposeful ram, and extremely rare I get rammed accidentally. As a heavy it's no less rare that I get a solid ram on a lightweight because they're simply that much more manoeuvrable. It's not until you start fighting midweights that a heavy has a decent chance of connecting a turbo dash on an experienced player. It's the homing ability/speed of weapons and the powerful specials of certain heavies that generally rank those heavies above most lightweights, not their ramming ability.

I could hardly care less about realism and definitely agree with Malefactor in that regard. At the same time though, I don't care about how balanced or unbalanced the game might feel in the initial month or two. Sure, ramming definitely felt overpowered when the game first launched. Without experience playing those lightweights it was easy to take accidental damage or be subjected to rams when driving lackadaisically. That doesn't mean the game should've been rebalanced around how easy it was to ram players then, because without the threat of being rammed I can almost  guarantee that in current day midweights would destroy heavies in TM 2012. For example, if a Death Warrant can stay within a few feet of a Sweet Tooth, keeping in their blind spot and unloading powers, shotguns and napalms without the fear of taking damage or being staggered by contact, it'd be a constant blowout in close quarters.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #27 - 03/20/18 at 06:29:39
 
Yeah weight would be the better term not realism. I couldn't think of a better word.

Malefactor wrote on 03/14/18 at 20:36:06:
Actually, Jaffe went on record and said that the ramming power in those early games was a freak accident. Thatís why Black didnít have it. They never intended it that way in the first place.

As for weak ramming, it makes even less sense to have a freakin tank shoot nerf gun bullets which is your only option if you add high damage from ramming with a big car.

In Black, if you wanted high ramming you could be Darkside. If not, Manslaughter. Problem solved.

I already use Manslaughter he's my main car. When did Jaffe said that? That probably explains why ramming is weak on the front of the car in TM2 but they forgot the sides and back. Why intend to make a car fighting game with weapons and no ramming? It's like he doesn't know what makes a good car combat game and all of these accidents like dodging are actually something that should have been in the game. The big cars in TMBO were still the best anyway despite the weak ramming, except Darkside that one takes half your health in TMBO even on a big car.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #28 - 03/21/18 at 13:07:19
 
Muddeh wrote on 03/19/18 at 02:59:52:
In my opinion ram damage is critical for a future TM. I understand and accept why ramming was practically nonexistent in the games where vehicles were generally speedier and had less of a sense of weight. Even if ram damage was substantial, it would rarely be viable without without a freeze combo or a Darkside-esque speed boost. However, I am almost certain that vehicles will have more of a sense of weight in a future TM simply because in modern games vehicles don't control like they do in Black, and unless the next game is super toony, the game will likely sport a more realistic physics engine in which ramming would be expected to be a major element of combat.
.


Muddeh, you are a decent poster and have good knowledge on TMX, but when you decide to fluff your post with speculation on what the next TM will be when debating mechanics, it detracts from your post and credibility.

Reason I prefer ramming in TM2 is even as Grimm (even if it was a accident) You could take several rams before becoming roadkill.

In a furball in TMX, be it deathmatch or team death match the ony time a small car like that shines is taking hits on distracted opposition. And how they factored in the tyoe of vehicle in TMX, more so than they used to, made Reaper an heavy target for easy kills.

The argument of skill does come into play, but if you removed that factor, I can almost grantee with equally skilled players Reaper would always loose. Thus every time you play as reaper you are always playing a heavy disadvantage.

Where as in older Twisted, you were at a disadvantage due to armor, but the gap didn't feel quite as heavy as it did with TMX.

Rams did damage, but far less, so if someone sneaks up on you in a furball, they couldn't just one shot you giving a chance of fighting back.

And if two high skilled players VS'd one another Grim VS a heavyweight. It would be much more neck and neck due to 2 factors.

1) Grimm didn't need a gimmick to get his full special damage, to in a tight squeeze it could be used to your advantage.

2) In the older games, while Grimm was weaker you still had a good fighting chance with him because he had more survivability.

I think where things got muddled up for TMX, was when they started trying to balanace AA vs Vehicle type.
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Re: LAN server for TMPS3
Reply #29 - 03/21/18 at 20:18:19
 
Adonael hit many of the issues on the head above, but to get to bare basics, a ram is a weapon. Whatís more, itís an infinite weapon. Unlike other weapons in the game, it is not based on regeneration or pick up abilities.

This NECESSARILY means the cars with a more powerful ram, an infinite weapon, will have a substantial advantage in combat. There are only so many ways to tune that down. Thank God Black didnít give all the big cars infinite mega rams because they ALREADY rule the tier list because of their high damage output and high armor. The only known ways to balance are:

1. Make the big carís special weapons weaker (which is kind of ...KIND of how TM2 did it).
2. Make dodging by small cars significantly more viable than large (never tried, and we all know what TMX did here).
3. Mess with vehicle AA (damn hard and with significant downsides ... tried by TMX and in my opinion failed).
4. Mix of the above.

Either way, itís frickiní hard as admitted by every dev team thatís tried, and itís apparentl in every version of Twisted Metal because the big cars have ruled in every version. Especially TMX.
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