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TM2012 needs to slow down! (Read 4197 times)
Muddeh
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #60 - 02/11/17 at 02:40:46
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:20:56:
If you want to go the rounds on a specific mechanic you think I'm ignoring I'll do that now

Go back through the thread (or for that matter, the last three threads) and find everything you had ignored by yourself. I didn't write what I did for the sole purpose for you to reply to. It's up to you to reply if you either agree or disagree with it. You can ignore it if you want but if you keep droning on, I'll keep telling you that you're barely reading before responding, or are otherwise unable to process what you read.

Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:29:14:
Simple answer.  The leaderboard shows who the top players are for a specific month, and it shows how long they've played.  All of the top players for the current month had times below one day - hence the assumption that they are newbs.

Please assure me you're not so dense to think you can look at somebody's ranked stats and determine if they're a skilled player or not, let alone just looking at the top of the XP leaderboard. If someone has to be a tryhard in ranked matches against low-level players to feel good about themselves, then their stats are likely a fabrication and they'd get their ass beat if/when they try to play competitive.

The times displayed on the weekly and monthly leaderboards are the times the player logged during the week/month in ranked. The top player on the monthly leaderboard has logged ten hours in-game in ranked in ten days, and is one of the basement dwellers I speak of. Only one person in that top ten is a player who even shows up in competitive lobbies, hence proving ranked performances mean very little.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #61 - 02/11/17 at 03:38:51
 
Muddeh wrote on 02/11/17 at 02:40:46:
Please assure me you're not so dense to think you can look at somebody's ranked stats and determine if they're a skilled player or not,


*Sigh*

Just when I started to open the door to have a real discussion with you you once again expressed why it's so pointless.  Your reading comprehension is so off the charts bad that such an endeavor would be completely impossible.

I was NOT making any sort of comment about skill.  How can you not notice that?  Was it the use of the word "Top" that threw you on a completely irrelevant tangent?  The leaderboards rank you, it's what they do, inaccurate or not, but clearly my SOLE point was on the time played, not some desire to praise anyone's particular skill. Yet addressing that isn't even a part of your reply.

I was simply saying that the leaderboards show who has played a lot in ranked matches in the last month, AND if you click on their names, you can see their total time on the server in ranked matches. 

Since all of the total times were under a day, it was a possible and reasonable assumption that they are all newbs.  Hence my statement that it looks like the pros aren't even playing much anymore, just the newbs.

Yet somehow you go off on some tangent about skill.  Good God man.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #62 - 02/11/17 at 03:51:00
 
Jcub95 wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:09:51:
Yes, Ignorant in the sense that you have assumed that which you do not understand In the new TM. You don't have open mind of intelligence enough to rationalize an unbiased reconsideration. You simply formulated conclusions due to the short experiences you have had.

Nobody besides YOU ever argued that one was better than the other, and I actually never once claimed that this one was any different from the previous multi-player installments..


Don't you see how you are contradicting yourself here?  If they aren't largely different then there is no reason I couldn't know how the game would play from a few months.  Only if there is some radical difference would it require more experience to determine the strengths and weaknesses of this particular installment.   

They can't both be true.

I also assume you mean no one on this thread is arguing one is better than the other because to claim that no one besides me has condemned this game is grossly inaccurate and provable just by searching these boards.

However, even with this particular post, you are proving that you are incapable of objectively analyzing what is going on, as "The Truth" is also clearly arguing from a similar viewpoint as my own. Finally, Hockeyguy, who started the whole post in the first place, doesn't explicitly state that he doesn't think it's as good as the previous installments, but it wouldn't surprise me based on the evaluations he has given.  He'd have to state for sure though.

At any rate, your statement seems indefenisble and asinine, so buddy, maybe you should let mom and dad do the talking?

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« Last Edit: 02/11/17 at 07:37:46 by Malefactor »  
 
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #63 - 02/11/17 at 07:55:22
 
Muddeh wrote on 02/10/17 at 13:46:49:
What's the point in even showing your face and challenging someone, and not being willing to follow through? It's like walking up to someone on the street and telling them you could beat them up if you felt like it, but would rather not risk chipping a nail. You're liable to get your ass whooped someday with that entitled attitude. You clearly got dispensable time and don't mind being tortured reading and involving yourself in rhetorical debates like this. If you've got a point to prove, quit being a pussy and let's brawl.


At no point have I ever challenged you to a game because I have no desire to ever play it again. I'll admit it would be extremely satisfying doing it just to see what your response would be. However there is not enough to drive for me to invest time in a game I don't find fun and can't stand. Not to mention it is probably a pain in the ass finding people other than noobs to play with. I'd imagine at this point in time, you need to schedule games to even play with pros. Then with network errors on top of that, it would make playing the game even more of a nightmare.

The main thing though is it has already been proven to you with overwhelming facts so having someone actually show you is a waste of time. The only thing you say is basically "game has changed, can't judge is on the first months". It would be an excellent point except for the fact that we never judged on the first months. The game also hasn't "changed" everyone has just mastered the mechanics.  We judged it on our 10 years of experience playing all the other TMs online. We were the experts, we knew how everything worked. We could tell what impact so and so had on this or that. We knew how everything would play out.

Lets go over some facts...

When Jaffe annouced that you could not turn off healths, we said it was horrible because we knew better. At the time though we didn't know combat would be dumbed down. Then jaffe said he didn't know if dodging was possible and tried to get confirmation from tester "madden pro justin". Who of course ended up having no idea what the hell he was being asked and said "yes". We did not know 100% that combat was dumbed down yet. However we called it that getting healths would essentially try make up for dumbing down combat and play would revolve around them. You now confirm that exactly this and that it makes the game more interesting for you guys that play.


It took us all of 5 mins of beta to officially confirm the combat was dumbed down due to auto aim undodgable weapons which is what killed the game for us. Hell we feared this just watching game footage before beta. TM2012 has dumbed down combat and as a result is no where near as fun for people who played TM2PC/TMBO. Combat depth is greatly diminished which also brings down player skill cap. After calling it almost every online TM noob then said there is no way possible we could know that playing so little and we need to play more. Some even claimed that dodging played a role or flat out could not understand what we were even talking about and why it was a big deal. However some of those online TM noobs eventually admitted that we were right. You also have admitted it as well.

In our little play time and pretty right from the start. We have pretty much called almost every fucking thing. We called that talon was garbage. We called that flying in general was garbage. We called juggernaut was garbage. We called teams being the best way to play(however dumbing down combat completely ruined the best mode, last man standing) We called nuke mode was garbage. We called ranked was garbage. Hell we knew most of these things wouldn't work even before trying them. Your "pro" rooms settings are the same settings we would of been using right off the bat. Only problem was we couldn't meet up and get people in the room because of the fucking network errors.

You have listed all the things that make someone pro level in TM 2012. You have said that previous TMs mirror those things which you are correct. The main difference though is the COMBAT, which is the most important element of the whole goddamn game and the whole purpose of the game. The majority of depth comes from how COMBAT plays out. Everything else each contributes a small part of depth.

Saying that one of us could return to the game and be competing in a short amount of time is reality. You admit what makes someone pro in TM is mirrored across the games. If TM2012 clearly has easier combat and a past TM like TMBO has harder combat. How do you come to the conclusion that it would take one of us a long time to be competitive in TM2012? How can you possibly claim it when we called everything else and ended up being correct on it? How can you possibly claim anything like this when TM 2012 was your first ever and only online TM experience? I'm curious, how long do you think it takes to be a "pro" on TMBO? You already have a great deal of experience on TM2012. How long do you think it will take to master dodging/attacking?


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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #64 - 02/11/17 at 13:40:33
 
Anyone wanna ride duh Brown horse??

Or it can ride you.......either way....lemmie know.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #65 - 02/12/17 at 14:17:21
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:29:14:
Simple answer.  The leaderboard shows who the top players are for a specific month, and it shows how long they've played.  All of the top players for the current month had times below one day - hence the assumption that they are newbs.

I see the misunderstanding. You still didn't understand that the monthly leaderboard resets and only displays time spent playing from the start of the month, and believed that players who had played a few hours since the start of the month had only played a few hours in their lifetime (while many of the top monthly players actually had hundreds of lifetime hours), hence why you referred to such players as newbs. You failed to read my post stating that the monthly leaderboard resets at the start of each month and instead just tried to rationalize your first post. It was clear you still didn't understand since you suggested that if competitive players still played, then you would be able to find players with far more time on that leaderboard unless such players ignored ranked 100% and didn't appear on that leaderboard at all.

I figured you would have read my second-most recent post which indicates the monthly leaderboard resets, and you would realize the players that you had incorrectly believed to have only played a few lifetime hours had actually played far more. The fact that you rationalized calling them newbs when they clearly weren't new players lead me to think you had to be using the word "newb" in the context of skill, and that you were calling such players with hundreds of hours unskilled purely by viewing the leaderboard. Jcub interpreted it the same way I did, believing you were referring to skill. It was the only way to make sense of the idea you would refer to players with hundreds of hours as new players. I should have looked deeper into your message and realized you simply weren't reading, as usual. It's incredibly ironic you criticize my reading comprehension, when you clearly respond to my posts without even processing the information.

Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:29:14:
Only if there is some radical difference would it require more experience to determine the strengths and weaknesses of this particular installment.   

Are you illiterate? That's all I've ever advocated. The advancements which salvage the game have entirely been the subject of my posts, of which you haven't responded to a single time in this thread. Not a single damn time through +80 posts. It's as if you're reading a paper, skip the entire substance, read only the conclusion and determine it's invalid because it doesn't abide by your own sense of truth. Now, for the third time, here's the paragraph that wraps up the thesis of what I write, copied and pasted for your convenience. If you want to refute it, go back through the thread and respond to what I had written backing it up.

Point being, it's worthwhile to challenge preexisting notions of what does and doesn't work in a vehicle combat game. You ask why I would play TM 2012, which has inferior weapons mechanics, when I can play a previous TM where the weapons system is uncontestedly better? It's because of the many features and accidental depth in the new game that simply is not present in previous TMs. Without playing in a competitive environment (an environment which could not and did not exist during the initial months) you can't appreciate how things like predictable health respawns and killstreaks enhances teamplay, or what ramming/turbo dash and density of pickups/regeneration of specials does to encourage aggression and CQC in a modern game. As usual, the substance of my posts have been entirely ignored to this point, the your posts simply serve to discriminate against those whose opinions don't align with yours.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #66 - 02/12/17 at 16:31:36
 
The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
However there is not enough to drive for me to invest time in a game I don't find fun and can't stand.

You have enough drive and time to write 842 words in a single post, but still pussy out of a challenge? I'm sorry, but that's utterly pathetic. You simply come off as somebody with a massive inferiority complex who would be crushed if you couldn't back up your grandiose claims. Man up. Myself and others would be willing to play without auto-aim as well. No homers or snipers, only half-charged stalkers, manual remotes, etc..

The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
I'd imagine at this point in time, you need to schedule games to even play with pros. Then with network errors on top of that, it would make playing the game even more of a nightmare.

Drop in during the evenings. 80% of the time there'll be a lobby up during the prime hours and there will be a lobby up at least sometime during the night at least every day. I haven't been disconnected from an online match in over two years as of now, and server-side lag pretty close to non-existent these days. There's still the issue with lobbies running off listen servers and causes things to still be unstable if a room is filled to its max or if there are a number of international players, but it's much more bearable these days. Getting into lobbies can still be a pain at times, though it usually depends on the ping of the host.

The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
When Jaffe annouced that you could not turn off healths, we said it was horrible because we knew better.

Thanks for the history lesson on things I already knew. I know you're bitter at Jaffe. I am too. Health should not have been the default for FFA modes, and at the very least, there should have been an option to disable it in unranked. We're not off on different planets. But in the thread containing +200 posts regarding "why we know better" I presume you reference, the impact that the health being on a timer would have specifically on team games wasn't discussed once even though you guys were made aware by a statement by Jaffe it would be on a three minute timer. The thread simply contains two hundred posts of why it would replicate the same the crap that always had, and always will make health a load of crap in FFA modes. But for you guys, the impact of the timed health was inconceivable because you hadn't experienced static and predictable partial health respawns.

The criteria of timed, static and partial need to be fulfilled for health to make sense, and we stopped playing with the health semi and JYD's health taxis because those took away from the game's depth. Though, it admittedly took us a while to eventually ban the latter because we weren't playing at such a pace for the impact it had slowing the pace of the game to be noticed. It took you guys longer than five minutes to figure it out too. Until you play the game with timed partial health respawns, you simply cannot conceive the impact it has on teamplay beyond how I've recently explained it. Much like Malefactor, you didn't respond to the content of my posts and have gone off on your own tangent regurgitating things that have been said dozens of times before, and don't pertain to the counter-evidence beyond claiming "you know better" without valid cause.

The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
You have said that previous TMs mirror those things which you are correct.

Allow me to retract that statement. What I outlined mirrors previous TMs, and more. Most notably, in terms of situational awareness, map control and team synchronization. You can't nod your head and agree anything in previous TMs mirrors killstreaks and timed health, because they didn't exist then. While those three skills have been existent in previous TMs, they have been amplified in TM 2012 and that alone is what salvages the game in the way of its weapon mechanics.

The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
How do you come to the conclusion that it would take one of us a long time to be competitive in TM2012? How can you possibly claim it when we called everything else and ended up being correct on it?

When did I insist that it would take you a long time? What constitutes both a long time and being able to play competitive are both subjective anyhow. Like any TM, tying together both offence and defence is awkward at first, as well as developing teamplay instincts, but it develops on time depending on how frequently you play and what level of players you compete against and learn from. And considering it took a TM 2012 player to correct Malefactor that health not timed in TMBO, I called something as well. Let alone that whole idea being  able to "call everything" both now and in the future is a massive fallacy in of itself.

The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
How can you possibly claim anything like this when TM 2012 was your first ever and only online TM experience?

Very simple. You don't respond to any of the content of my posts. You don't prove me wrong. You make unrelated assertions and anecdotes that don't even relate to my argument.

The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
I'm curious, how long do you think it takes to be a "pro" on TMBO? You already have a great deal of experience on TM2012. How long do you think it will take to master dodging/attacking?

I don't have pride invested in how I would perform in TMBO. I'm well aware the atmosphere is casual and I won't be playing to prove anything, unlike you. I would guess my development won't be much different than your experience would be with TM 2012, perhaps I may even develop faster since I don't deny the depth of TMBO.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #67 - 02/12/17 at 18:32:30
 
You're being dishonest Muddeh. Or you are fooling yourself too.  I have many, many times responded to your direct arguments.  Truth did too - he has done some pretty brutal responses in the past that were directly on point.  Even in the above he responded directly with facts to your compadres arguments.    So many times though you'd go off on tangeants that were unrelated, or miss the point, or change the topic.  Many times we'd catch you in contradictions, and you wouldn't stop and reassess like a person would in an honest debate.  Instead every time we nailed you it meant some New five hundred page off topic essay.

In recent times you're right.  I do read every word you post, despite what you think, but I don't engage you because I'm still convinced it'll be the same rodeo.

I very honestly offered to give you another chance but you demanded I pick your arguments.  That just doesn't even seem fair to you.  This is you who believes in it.  Shouldn't you pick your best stuff that you want addressed? 

Now in regards to the server, your claim is that the times are only for that month?  If you click on that specific person though, doesn't it show you the entire server history?  It showed mine, and I haven't played since 2012. As long as it does that, then if I click on the top players for the month, and see that their entire server history is short, then they are probably newbs.

Edit:  I will say this . . . And I may be wrong - but I think you are lucky Truth isn't taking you up on a challenge.  He remains one of the best TMBO AND TM2PC players of all time.  What's particularly incredible is that for TM2PC he came in over ten years late and was busting heads in a very short time amongst the veterans.  He really is an amazing gamer.  If he ever took you up on the challenge I think you'd wish he hadn't. 

Hey though, could be wrong. It looks like we'll never know.  By the way, I've dropped in on the lobby three nights in the last week just to take a gander.  The only rooms had three people in them and were ranked so it didn't look like your posse was on.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #68 - 02/12/17 at 22:39:46
 
I guess I'll put my two cents in. Don't have anything better to do.

I stayed out of this argument in the past, and it is a argument not at debate, because I never played TMBO

When Twisted metal X 2012 whatever the hell all of you call it, came out I played completely through single player and played the game for a few months online. The game was fun. Pace was way way too fast. Seemed almost like they were trying to make a twitch based shooter (Like Unreal, Call of duty) into a car combat game. I always agreed with the fact because of this amped up speed the homing factors needed to be adjusted to help keep up with that speed.

Simply put if you were going at the speeds you were in X in Black, Nothing would ever hit you let alone come near to touching you.. But that is neither here nor there.

The game grew boring for me because even after months of playing there really wasn't much more depth to the combat. which is completely fine. The game was still fun.

When playing TMBO for the first few times. I really didn't know much of what I was doing despite playing all of the single player games, but I never discovered the added depth to the combat in these games, being I played them all at release and I was pretty young.

A lot of the time in TMBO there's little tactics you can apply to do combos and massive damage, some of which I'm not familiar with, but in a way, more like a fighting game than a shooter. Some weapons employ stuns and used in conjunction with specials  and freezes you can do some massive damage, excuse me if I don't go into super detail as I am still learning about the game.

Another strategic advantage in TMBO is multiple ways to use your specials. Yeah that's sort of a thing in TMX, (Laughing ghost, sweet bot and whatever else there is) but really not in the same context as TMBO. We'll take Yellow Jacket for example. You can fire his special off, which does a bit of damage, Ram which does more damage, turbo ram which does more damage than ramming and if you can get under a vehicle you can do massive damage.

If that doesn't suit your fancy lets look at Darkside. At base, Yeah all Darkside can do is ram, but the special has more abilites to it than just Ramming. It can be used as damage absorption, in conjunction with a  stun weapon, ram freeze, etc, etc. There's more to it than just that. as stated by other people, but thats what I've noticed on my own.

And as stated before, some weapons have a stun and bounce ability which further help set up your opponent for a combo.

Ability to dodge any weapon. (Lets not get into that argument again.) Some take more skill than others.

AA is also a lot more sparingly used in Black. This means you have to choose the right time to use a shield, or if you would rather freeze an enemy than have a shield in the chamber. The way AA worked in TMX simplified things a little too much in my opinion. And I'm not talking about the single button press factor, I'm talking about the way it worked. Some cars seemed like they had way too much AA compared to others.

That well of depth to the combat is what attracts me to TMBO and makes me waant to learn it and have a blast playing it. When you knock out someone who's been playing the game for 10 years (Which is no means CASUAL.) Earns you the feeling you must be finally getting a grasp on things. (Or just got lucky which is most likely.)

It's a much more rewarding experience than TMX in my opinion.


With that said, Neither one is better than the other. Some people enjoy fasted paced, frag fest rather than a methodical game and all that if good and dandy.

Like Jaffe said and I said previously when this argument ravaged this community:

They are two diffrerent games, two different entries. They are not made to be alike


Sooo, that said. Quit comparing potatoes to tomatos.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #69 - 02/12/17 at 22:54:59
 
Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
You have enough drive and time to write 842 words in a single post, but still pussy out of a challenge? I'm sorry, but that's utterly pathetic. You simply come off as somebody with a massive inferiority complex who would be crushed if you couldn't back up your grandiose claims. Man up. Myself and others would be willing to play without auto-aim as well. No homers or snipers, only half-charged stalkers, manual remotes, etc..


Ohhh wow, I spent a whole 10 minutes making a post! I'm all for challenges but not the shit show you are demanding. No auto-aim? A ramming match with a few straight shot weapons? Why didn't you just say so in the first place! I'm not up for the regular shit show but  I'll gladly do an alternate shit show. I'll see ya tonight!

Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
Drop in during the evenings. 80% of the time there'll be a lobby up during the prime hours and there will be a lobby up at least sometime during the night at least every day. I haven't been disconnected from an online match in over two years as of now, and server-side lag pretty close to non-existent these days. There's still the issue with lobbies running off listen servers and causes things to still be unstable if a room is filled to its max or if there are a number of international players, but it's much more bearable these days. Getting into lobbies can still be a pain at times, though it usually depends on the ping of the host.


Most of the people that still play the game regularly to this day are the people the online luckily works for. Which is the a big reason why they still do play to this day. I'd like to propose a challenge to you. Tonight I'll gather up 7 people and you gather up 7 people. The team with the most people awake when we get 16 in the room is the winner. I'm pretty sure it will end in a draw though so we could just call it a draw now. The only winning move is not to play.

Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
Thanks for the history lesson on things I already knew. I know you're bitter at Jaffe. I am too. Health should not have been the default for FFA modes, and at the very least, there should have been an option to disable it in unranked. We're not off on different planets. But in the thread containing +200 posts regarding "why we know better" I presume you reference, the impact that the health being on a timer would have specifically on team games wasn't discussed once even though you guys were made aware by a statement by Jaffe it would be on a three minute timer. The thread simply contains two hundred posts of why it would replicate the same the crap that always had, and always will make health a load of crap in FFA modes. But for you guys, the impact of the timed health was inconceivable because you hadn't experienced static and predictable partial health respawns.

The criteria of timed, static and partial need to be fulfilled for health to make sense, and we stopped playing with the health semi and JYD's health taxis because those took away from the game's depth. Though, it admittedly took us a while to eventually ban the latter because we weren't playing at such a pace for the impact it had slowing the pace of the game to be noticed. It took you guys longer than five minutes to figure it out too. Until you play the game with timed partial health respawns, you simply cannot conceive the impact it has on teamplay beyond how I've recently explained it. Much like Malefactor, you didn't respond to the content of my posts and have gone off on your own tangent regurgitating things that have been said dozens of times before, and don't pertain to the counter-evidence beyond claiming "you know better" without valid cause.


Hopefully you are better at playing TM2012 than you are at playing detective. Good job finding that popular thread where we were commenting on it before we were able to see what they did with the game. In numerous threads after playing we said they would be part of the game and weren't an issue.

Also brilliant job posting a video claiming it represents what I'm saying. Its a random game and there is only 2 TMA people even in the room. Neither one of them is part of the main TMA crowd that already moved on at that point. They were from a select handful that played the game longer trying to find a reason to like the game.

Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
Allow me to retract that statement. What I outlined mirrors previous TMs, and more. Most notably, in terms of situational awareness, map control and team synchronization. You can't nod your head and agree anything in previous TMs mirrors killstreaks and timed health, because they didn't exist then. While those three skills have been existent in previous TMs, they have been amplified in TM 2012 and that alone is what salvages the game in the way of its weapon mechanics.


Sorry buddy, you don't get to retract it cause you slipped up and told the truth. Proving what I was saying was correct.

Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
When did I insist that it would take you a long time? What constitutes both a long time and being able to play competitive are both subjective anyhow. Like any TM, tying together both offence and defence is awkward at first, as well as developing teamplay instincts, but it develops on time depending on how frequently you play and what level of players you compete against and learn from. And considering it took a TM 2012 player to correct Malefactor that health not timed in TMBO, I called something as well. Let alone that whole idea being  able to "call everything" both now and in the future is a massive fallacy in of itself.


I triggered you with "It wouldn't take long till a group of us that haven't played the game since months after launch were taking turns winning with a group of "pros" that have been playing since launch.". Now you say you never insisted it would take a long time. Thanks once again for ADMITTING that my statement was the truth.

Maybe you would have some idea how "long" is but as usual would require you to have had experience with past online TMs.

Not quite sure how logging into the game and recording spawn times is you "calling it" Compared to us playing online TMs prior to TM2012 and almost immediately calling out almost everything and how it would play out instead of taking months to years to come to the same conclusions.

Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
Very simple. You don't respond to any of the content of my posts. You don't prove me wrong. You make unrelated assertions and anecdotes that don't even relate to my argument.


Except the part where you get proved wrong every time. You revolve around making claims based on your first online tm experience with TM2012. Then you try to argue said claims with people who have played them all online. Seriously you just ADMITTED what made someone "pro" was shared between TMs. Then you ADMITTED it would not take a long time like I said. Like usual you realized how stupid you were and are trying to go back on it.


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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #70 - 02/12/17 at 23:26:07
 
Okay, but I still was not wrong on the times. Are you wrong Muddeh about healths because the full healths (semis) drive randomly?

Of course not. You were thinking about specific healths and so was I. In TMBO the full healths respawn on a 2 minute timer, and they were the most fought over in the game (resulting in the same type of combat crap you praised). Chopper minis also are on a timer. The remaining healths respawn within a predictable time frame, though that time will vary.

The final takeaway is we DID experience predictable reoccurring health spawns and the cluster fights that occurred with them. That nuanced distinction was just assumed in that post, which is why it was never brought up. We were arguing all healths suck no matter the breed.

And we were right. They do. Further more, the syllogism we proposed for why all healths sucked would be unimpacted regardless of if we'd NEVER faced the timed ones. Anyone able to comprehend our argument would see that.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #71 - 02/13/17 at 01:53:52
 
†Adonael wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:39:46:
I guess I'll put my two cents in. Don't have anything better to do.

I stayed out of this argument in the past, and it is a argument not at debate, because I never played TMBO

When Twisted metal X 2012 whatever the hell all of you call it, came out I played completely through single player and played the game for a few months online. The game was fun. Pace was way way too fast. Seemed almost like they were trying to make a twitch based shooter (Like Unreal, Call of duty) into a car combat game. I always agreed with the fact because of this amped up speed the homing factors needed to be adjusted to help keep up with that speed.

Simply put if you were going at the speeds you were in X in Black, Nothing would ever hit you let alone come near to touching you.. But that is neither here nor there.

The game grew boring for me because even after months of playing there really wasn't much more depth to the combat. which is completely fine. The game was still fun.

When playing TMBO for the first few times. I really didn't know much of what I was doing despite playing all of the single player games, but I never discovered the added depth to the combat in these games, being I played them all at release and I was pretty young.

A lot of the time in TMBO there's little tactics you can apply to do combos and massive damage, some of which I'm not familiar with, but in a way, more like a fighting game than a shooter. Some weapons employ stuns and used in conjunction with specials  and freezes you can do some massive damage, excuse me if I don't go into super detail as I am still learning about the game.

Another strategic advantage in TMBO is multiple ways to use your specials. Yeah that's sort of a thing in TMX, (Laughing ghost, sweet bot and whatever else there is) but really not in the same context as TMBO. We'll take Yellow Jacket for example. You can fire his special off, which does a bit of damage, Ram which does more damage, turbo ram which does more damage than ramming and if you can get under a vehicle you can do massive damage.

If that doesn't suit your fancy lets look at Darkside. At base, Yeah all Darkside can do is ram, but the special has more abilites to it than just Ramming. It can be used as damage absorption, in conjunction with a  stun weapon, ram freeze, etc, etc. There's more to it than just that. as stated by other people, but thats what I've noticed on my own.

And as stated before, some weapons have a stun and bounce ability which further help set up your opponent for a combo.

Ability to dodge any weapon. (Lets not get into that argument again.) Some take more skill than others.

AA is also a lot more sparingly used in Black. This means you have to choose the right time to use a shield, or if you would rather freeze an enemy than have a shield in the chamber. The way AA worked in TMX simplified things a little too much in my opinion. And I'm not talking about the single button press factor, I'm talking about the way it worked. Some cars seemed like they had way too much AA compared to others.

That well of depth to the combat is what attracts me to TMBO and makes me waant to learn it and have a blast playing it. When you knock out someone who's been playing the game for 10 years (Which is no means CASUAL.) Earns you the feeling you must be finally getting a grasp on things. (Or just got lucky which is most likely.)

It's a much more rewarding experience than TMX in my opinion.


With that said, Neither one is better than the other. Some people enjoy fasted paced, frag fest rather than a methodical game and all that if good and dandy.

Like Jaffe said and I said previously when this argument ravaged this community:

They are two diffrerent games, two different entries. They are not made to be alike


Sooo, that said. Quit comparing potatoes to tomatos.


That's a thoughtful reply.

I can appreciate the argument that there is no "right" or "wrong" on which is better.  There are certainly some people who prefer the FPS feel of TM:2012.  For them, the series has never been more on track.

Still, like making a submarine game where the subs fly, or a puzzle game where most of the puzzles are target practicing with a rifle in FPS mode - you have to play to the genres' strengths.  ESP seemed to have lost faith in car combat and hoped if, instead of feeling similar to a fighter (like the old games) if they made it closer to an FPS it might be hugely popular. This kind of fear is why Incognito cancelled TMB2, and why the series was dormant for so many years. The odd thing, though, is that the entries made when they had confidence were all million sellers, and it was only when they didn't play to the series' strengths and made fear based decisions that it faltered.

The strengths are what TM should play to. People are slow - cars are all fast and some are faster than others.  Maneuverability, speed, armor, all those things and experiencing that is what makes car combat so awesome, and I think if fans experienced that they'd stay longer, and there'd be more of them.

It's funny how history repeated itself.  They got all paranoid (based on no real data - only fear) in 2004 that with the advent of Grand Theft Auto no one would ever love car combat again.  So they started to slap an "on foot" element in the game.  Someone realized that wasn't working so they canned it. In 2008 they had the same fears, but this time the dominant genre was FPS so they tried to imitate that one.  This time it was released, but with lower sales figures than the previous games and less fan acceptance.

I can't say why others post here sometimes and fight this fight.  I don't a lot - but sometimes, and it has to do with

1. Hoping that somehow if word gets out and someday the series is done again, it's done the "right," way.

2. Defending the version of history that I think is right (i.e. That we all tried to prevent all sorts of these errors, were patted on the head and told we're being heard, and then they pretty much ignored about all of the feedback).

There's a good chance it's all just a waste of my time.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #72 - 02/13/17 at 02:48:32
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 18:32:30:
I have many, many times responded to your direct arguments.

If you're honestly believe this, then there's one of two things at play. Either you think regurgitating the same broad-strokes arguments without actually relating it to the points I make counts as directly responding, or you are illiterate and can't process what I've written, such that the most you can do is provide anecdotes and assign false cause. You consistently manipulate the subject, and it was you that guided the whole topic into a soapbox for you to rant about the weapon mechanics of TM 2012.

Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 18:32:30:
Shouldn't you pick your best stuff that you want addressed?

What I post is entirely relevant to the thesis I've posted again and again. But it doesn't align with your agenda of justifying your hate for the game, so you ignore it and go on unrelated tangents so you can feel comfortable in your bubble not needing to consider counter-evidence.

Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 18:32:30:
Now in regards to the server, your claim is that the times are only for that month?  If you click on that specific person though, doesn't it show you the entire server history?

You displayed that you weren't even aware you could view lifetime stats by selecting players on the leaderboard. You wouldn't have said oblivious things like suggesting competitive players must ignore ranked 100%. Even if you did select the players and look at their lifetime stats, calling the newbs still makes even less sense. I just added up the times of the top ten on the monthly leaderboard currently (LosAngelesGod, verstatilechimp, patrick5475v, Knight_voyager, FriedEggsOnaNail, damn_u_tm, steveKO59, DuckD0dgeRzzz, nnb1989 and WHIT3BOY_77_) and the average lifetime stat is +39 days of in-game playtime. If you had been aware that you could select their names, you would have not called players with an average time of nearly forty days newbs. Since you've logged in a couple times now, the most logical explanation is the you didn't realize you could select a player to view lifetime stats, and upon realizing you tried to save face for not knowing and looking like a doorknob in response to my posts. Case in point, you failed to read what I had posted and then attempted to rationalize your post, further proving you'll do anything to prevent you're admitting you're wrong on even straight up facts, hence why it's impossible to make any sort of progress in a conversation with you.

Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 18:32:30:
He remains one of the best TMBO AND TM2PC players of all time.

If you know them so well, what is their online handle? If their name commanded respect, then why not use that name on TMA rather than post as a sleezy alt? For that matter, what was your account when you had been active here and involved in the debates? I would love the see if you guys specifically "called everything" as The Truth claims. Not that I don't believe you, but fact checking would be nice.

Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 23:26:07:
Are you wrong Muddeh about healths because the full healths (semis) drive randomly?
Can you not read? I stated that we stopped playing with the health semi and JYD's health taxis because those took away from the game's depth. It's not relevant to the way we play. Point being, the only way to play with timed, static and partial health packs in team games (which is the only way health makes sense) is in TM 2012.

The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Ohhh wow, I spent a whole 10 minutes making a post!

If it takes you ten minutes to compose nearly a thousand words, then no wonder you miss the entire point of the argument. That's simply enough time to mindlessly rehash the same anecdotes you always do without even putting thought into what I had posted. And it shows.

The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
I'm not up for the regular shit show but  I'll gladly do an alternate shit show. I'll see ya tonight!

I sent you a PM. Tell me your PSN ID so I can add you, or otherwise provide me some other form of communication to arrange this.

The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Most of the people that still play the game regularly to this day are the people the online luckily works for.

And again, what recent experience do you have to be able to claim you still have to be "lucky" to play today? All of us had terrible experiences in the early months, some worse than others. You're simply throwing out blind assertions to say that if you were among those who had the most trouble in the early months, you would still have trouble that's disproportionate to the rest of the playerbase today. You imply a burden of proof while, to this point, having been unwilling to experience the game first hand.

The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Neither one of them is part of the main TMA crowd that already moved on at that point.

Most of the players had moved in less than three weeks? I thought you said you guys stuck with the game for months before giving up. You think you could replicate the competitive environment which the effect of killstreaks and timed health require in that short of a period of time? You guys would have barely learned the battleground and gotten accustomed to driving at that point. Aside from the that, what would be so hard about telling the JYD not to heal, or for that matter not taking the heals they offer? It's not like the chat is a secret in this game, it wouldn't be hard to tell them to cut it out.

The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Sorry buddy, you don't get to retract it cause you slipped up and told the truth. Proving what I was saying was correct.

Then you would also say your lying to say the effect of killstreaks and timed health are mirrored in TMBO, which is impossible since they don't exist. And honestly, you're going to nitpick me to that extent? You can't deny they truth. I'm not altering my opinion, I'm correcting a fact.

The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Now you say you never insisted it would take a long time. Thanks once again for ADMITTING that my statement was the truth.

You can't read, can you? I responded asking when I insisted that it would take you a long time because you were putting words in my mouth and making it as though I have something to prove to you. I never said it wouldn't take you a long time. I said it would depend on how frequently you play and what level of players you compete against and learn from. Try again.

The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Not quite sure how logging into the game and recording spawn times is you "calling it"

He proved he is not an authority on TMBO to the extent he claims because he had to be objectively corrected by a TM 2012 player about his own game.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #73 - 02/13/17 at 03:01:04
 
I rarely chime in on things like this because it IS a big waste of my time to feed into these things, where it becomes a hateful squabble about who is right and wrong.

Look at Tekken, this is a prime example of a very popular fighting game that has only tweaked and added new features as it went. It may not sell as much as COD but with it's established fan base it makes enough to warrant production of a new installment.

Fighting games are not exactly unprofitable, but the figures will never match that of a game like Call of Duty or GTA, so like you said, they thought changing the direction would make it popular. That is a error due to the fact of the way marketing works.

Sonys marketing strategy is something like this:

Smallest profits:

early adopters/Fans = Secured purchases

Medium profits:

People who see the ads, reviews etc decide to buy the game

Large Profit:

The crowd that gives no fuck about said game. How do we make it Popular? Turn all these non-believers into believers by making this game mimic another game without losing it's coat of paint.

In other words make it Viable to the mass market.

Thats a complete bastardized version of what marketing teaches you, but it's a very flawed system and why I believe that TMX did as OK as it did. Jaffe was a factor in this as well because he believed the formula had grown stale and wanted to offer something new, but that's not a fault all on his own. A lot of people have their hand in the pot when it comes to multi millions and marketing.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #74 - 02/13/17 at 04:05:29
 
Muddeh, you're focusing WAY too much on this leaderboard thing.  I've made it clear that I could be wrong.  I took a glance the first time on and read through a few names.  I logged on twice after that just to glance at the server, not engage in an ongoing math project.  I specifically said I could be wrong, and I specifically asked you (thus giving you the chance) to answer if you've played a lot recently.  So if I was wrong, okay, move on.


Also, "real" (since none of these handles are real - hope you saw what I did there) don't matter at all unless you are trying to turn this fight into an ego fest, which in your last post you seem to be.  Suppose my name wasn't among ANY of those people posting and I'm lying - NEVER PARTICPATIED IN THE ARGUMENTS.  That's the worse case right?  Well so what . . . As long as the people in those posts called it - and they did - then the argument still stands.

Focus on what matters bro!  It's like if we were arguing about whether or not black holes ever dissipate and run out of energy, and you keep spending five days on if "black hole" is even the proper name for one.  Tangent! 

Anyway, I gave you plenty of chances to have a real discussion on specific points.  So far all we are doing are tangents, so I'm moving on.

EDIT:  AND FOR THE LAST TIME, TIMED HEALTHS DO EXIST IN TMBO.  Read above for God's sake.  It's arguable the game has BOTH whereas yours has one, but the most powerful healths in TMBO are very clearly timed.  You never played TMBO so all you have to look at is the base offline game, but it was different.  You just didn't know that, and then you refused to listen afterwards.
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