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TM2012 needs to slow down! (Read 9971 times)
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #45 - 02/10/17 at 08:32:37
 
Thank you.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #46 - 02/10/17 at 11:34:00
 
Anyone wanna play with some horses?

Got a few purdy ones on brawl to hang out with!
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #47 - 02/10/17 at 13:46:49
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/09/17 at 01:47:39:
Besides that, did you miss the part where he's one of over a hundred?

Did you miss the part where I said "While I'm sure that a very large portion of them have a negative opinion of TM 2012, extremely few would represent your views that they wouldn't want to see a new entry in the series."? Nobody here is contesting that the majority of players who were active on TMA were disappointed by the game. That has never been a subject on contention. But I hold that the majority of TMA would both want, and believe in a future TM done properly. Or for that matter, just an online vehicle combat game done properly that a larger playerbase can get behind, even if it's just an indie project.

Malefactor wrote on 02/09/17 at 01:47:39:
You need to get to a point where you at least accept when you've been given powerful evidence against your case.

I recognize any points you make, and either accept or refute them. In the meantime, you completely ignore the substance of my posts in favour of going off topic by making redundant claims (which in most cases aren't even relevant to the actual discussion) and insulting others to provoke a response to ensure the topic is guided that way. You twisted this thread from a discussion of the game's pace into a forum to vent why you think the game sucks.

Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 00:14:41:
they probably did that out of sheer frustration.  They liked using Sweetbot and Talon?  Whatever . . . I hated Talon but the damn vehicle is in the fucking game.

I'm pretty sure that Mort wouldn't be making music videos of tactics which would frustrate him, let alone hundreds of them. At least if they were meant to be parody, you'd expect him to be choosing songs like Yakety Sax and not game/rock songs. I'm sorry, but I don't believe Mort and Mosh would invest such time in the game and still play in such a manner out of frustration... they did because they found it fun. Choosing Talon for the sake of it being in the game is like choosing Spectre in TMBO and purposefully playing like a bitch with it. It's in the game and a tactic you can use, but is pointless since it's unfun to both play that way and fight against such a player and you could have much more fun playing in a skillful manner. The point of me mentioning them is simply because you're implying a double standard. If my taste in games is inferior, then Mort's (the one person you singled out of over a hundred others, presumably implying he has the most prestige) played in an even more tasteless manner. Again, I have nothing against Mort. He's a cool dude, and you just brought his name up in an ironic context.

I get your pain that the series hasn't produced a game to the quality we know it can. I'm still very willing to have them take another stab at it. It's not like Silent Hill which is still being milked with a biennial/triennial release, versus Twisted Metal which has only had two bad eggs since the turn of the century. It's also not like there are other similarly-theme survival games that have replaced Silent Hill in the modern generation. We have next to nothing to fill the void, and if there was a decent alternative to Twisted Metal on the market then I would be less impassioned about seeing the series rise from the ashes. But simply put, there isn't. Twisted Metal is all we got, and whether Sony invests in the series again or a third party ceases the opportunity to develop a new vehicle combat IP, it does the community no good to bask in negativity. You and I both know what the series is capable of, and I don't think our opinions of what would make a solid new TM wildly differ at the core, I do appreciate the more respectful tone of your last post towards me.

The Truth wrote on 02/09/17 at 22:47:35:
No one is going to torture their self just to prove it to you.

What's the point in even showing your face and challenging someone, and not being willing to follow through? It's like walking up to someone on the street and telling them you could beat them up if you felt like it, but would rather not risk chipping a nail. You're liable to get your ass whooped someday with that entitled attitude. You clearly got dispensable time and don't mind being tortured reading and involving yourself in rhetorical debates like this. If you've got a point to prove, quit being a pussy and let's brawl.

The Truth wrote on 02/09/17 at 22:47:35:
Just so we are clear, I'm not saying one of us could return and win every game by large margins raping every pro.

Win every game by large margins? Using terms like that makes me believe that you think playing competitive team-based TM is an individual effort. Let this be your first piece of advice. If your first concern is playing for the sake of your stats, you're likely going to fail. Since you're curious enough to question what it takes to be a "pro", here's the skills you would need in the most basic way I can present them.

1. Driving Skill and Map Navigation
2. Vehicle and Weapon Competence
3. CQC Execution
4. Situational Awareness
5. Map Control and Pacing
6. Team Synchronization

Driving skill is what you would expect, simply being able to pilot your vehicle efficiently while constantly using turbo, along with knowing the most effective weapon routes from any spawn/location and knowing how to make some of the trickier jumps into narrow chutes or jumping high ledges that don't leave much room for bad timing.

Vehicle and weapon competence is obvious too, simply knowing the capabilities of each vehicle with their stats, their specials, as well as how weapons work. It sounds simple of the surface, but this also ties a lot into knowing how different vehicles command different playstyles, and choosing a vehicle that is suitable with your teammate's choices. In small team matches it is critical to balance a lineup with both ruggedness and speed.

CQC execution is simply being able to fight in close quarters. Obviously, landing weapons and the skill-based pickups and specials is critical in this regard, along with knowing how to stagger/prepare combos, use energy effectively, fighting 1v1 versus group situations, but also maneuvering to be unpredictable to set up/avoid rams and dodge when you can to tie together both offence and defence. Just like any TM, it's awkward at first but eventually becomes instinct.

Situational awareness goes a long way, especially in team games. Being aware of when a player is developing a killstreak, and supporting the teammate/shutting down the opponent is a must. Not being isolated critical as well, especially when low on turbo or inventory. It may sound simple, but it is very easy to be ambushed. Same goes for defence at a long distance, dodging garbage inventory that may be fired on you afar, jumping shockwaves, not being frozen, etc..

Map control again ties into weapon routes, but also has a lot to do with positioning and commandeering areas of the map with the strongest resources, since you're never going to win in CQC spamming homers and garbage inventory. With both weapons and health being on a timer since when they're last acquired, pacing is huge to ensure survival, running weapon routes when most efficient and starving your opponent of resources.

Team synchronization is also huge with competitive TM being purely team-focused. There's a constant balance between ensuring your team covers a large footprint of the map and controls the resources, but also doesn't get isolated or outnumbered in a fight. Certain players and vehicles can play more aggressively than others, and it's important to strike that perfect balance.

I would imagine you'd agree that a lot of what I outlined mirrors what is required to play a previous TMs effectively in a team setting. Obviously, there's a range of skill among veterans, but if you can tie together all six of those fundamentals you'll likely hold your own. On different nights there will be different ranges of skill depending on who logs in that night, and some nights (depends on who's hosting mostly) we're willing to let infrequent players who have decently high skill ratings join in, and just balance the strong players around them. What I wouldn't expect is to have to not balance the teams with strong players being partnered with someone having little experience playing and still having a fair match. Basically if you play on the opposing team, put up a strong performance and come out with a win for your team without being carried or farmed for easy kills, I would concede.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #48 - 02/10/17 at 14:54:44
 
I have never ignored any point you made.  The simple fact is your Twisted Metal offers nothing that the old ones don't already offer, and they offer things yours can't.  That's why people disliked it. Well, that's almost true.  It offers flying cars, and a game that's mostly offensive.  So if that's what you prefer, yeah, it rocks.

Yesterday I booted up the old Twisted Metal 2012 server.  Funny thing is it tracks who has played a lot in the last month even.  Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it looked like the only people who really played it were newbs.

Even you guys have moved on from it. Maybe it's time to move on from this thread too.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #49 - 02/10/17 at 15:40:14
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 14:54:44:
I have never ignored any point you made.  The simple fact is your Twisted Metal offers nothing that the old ones don't already offer, and they offer things yours can't.

Half my damn posts have been focused on the features that were present in TM 2012 which salvage the game. Why would I play a game with inferior weapons mechanics if there wasn't something more involved? It simply proves that you are not even reading, or otherwise not processing my posts. I'm not trying to indoctrinate you into the church of TM 2012 for goodness sake. I could care less if you like the game or not, and if you weren't obsessed that was my motive then you may actually figure out what I'm speaking about. Here's a copied and pasted paragraph, since you wouldn't have made your previous post if you had even read it.

Point being, it's worthwhile to challenge preexisting notions of what does and doesn't work in a vehicle combat game. You ask why I would play TM 2012, which has inferior weapons mechanics, when I can play a previous TM where the weapons system is uncontestedly better? It's because of the many features and accidental depth in the new game that simply is not present in previous TMs. Without playing in a competitive environment (an environment which could not and did not exist during the initial months) you can't appreciate how things like predictable health respawns and killstreaks enhances teamplay, or what ramming/turbo dash and density of pickups/regeneration of specials does to encourage aggression and CQC in a modern game. As usual, the substance of my posts have been entirely ignored to this point, the your posts simply serve to discriminate against those whose opinions don't align with yours.

Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 14:54:44:
Funny thing is it tracks who has played a lot in the last month even.  Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it looked like the only people who really played it were newbs.

First, I can hardly tell how you can simply look at a leaderboard and determine if someone is a newb based on stats. Second, if you're looking at the monthly leaderboard it resets at the start of each month, hence why you'd likely notice the stats wouldn't have been much larger than the weekly leaderboard when you looked. Third, we play unranked and not ranked. Our stats aren't recorded after matches. There's a number of casuals who get a kick out of playing ranked on a frequent basis, most of which are terrible players since they lack any competitive drive. I don't get the appeal, but different strokes for different folks I guess.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #50 - 02/10/17 at 16:06:07
 
Toward Malefactor & The Truth

Truthfully It doesn't make any sense to me how you are judging simply based off of the initial months the game came out, when literally everything was a chaotic server-disaster, and the game was riddled with nonsense that a simple community of casuals jousting mounted guns could not overcome such as the Talon / Sweetbot spammers.

With all of these things mitigated the game plays unimaginably different. You may assume just because you play a game of similar depth and technique, that there would not be any possibility of such a thing In current TM. This ultimately Is laughable in a sense, as I see you boasting about things that just simply happen by accident or are absolutely rare and practically nonexistent, such as dodging every single missile that comes at you from every angle or some other elaborate claim. Once In a way, this may happen In TM2012 too actually. I have seen a number of scenarios where a player underestimated someone because of low health, and got utterly demolished because In their minds they assumed that a few simple fire and forget weapons would finish the job.

Once you become aware of what counters are available, and what to expect from generally each vehicle and playstyle, these baby-tactics are simply frowned upon and are proven ineffective. You can come and use the most basic to learn vehicle In the game, & a more seasoned player could beat you with the lowest class vehicle they can think of; simply because of a stronger usage order of attacks, knowledge of the terrain, pure talent to nail sliding power shots, rear napalms, manual fires, catch you In staggered situations, proper use of shields, capitalization of your terrible decisions and so on.

There Is a great layers upon layers of depth just simply In the hierarchy of regular players ability to compete in the strongest environments. A player may do well, a player may do great, then there are the players who perform a full package playstyle, and can make these players look average with consistency of high damage output, concentrated attacks (leading to personal points or assists), and In most cases, with the general positive K/D.

The fact that you assume a game you have played well over a decade Is far beyond anything another player from another TM would be capable of falls short, when you are making utterly half-baked claims about that which you have not experienced, as well as a scenario you are too afraid, or otherwise too stuborn to tackle head on. Formulating conclusions based on Ignorance seems to be the hallmark of those blinded by comfortable nostalgia.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #51 - 02/10/17 at 18:20:56
 
Jcub95 wrote on 02/10/17 at 16:06:07:
Toward Malefactor & The Truth

Truthfully It doesn't make any sense to me how you are judging simply based off of the initial months the game came out, when literally everything was a chaotic server-disaster, and the game was riddled with nonsense that a simple community of casuals jousting mounted guns could not overcome such as the Talon / Sweetbot spammers.

With all of these things mitigated the game plays unimaginably different. You may assume just because you play a game of similar depth and technique, that there would not be any possibility of such a thing In current TM. This ultimately Is laughable in a sense, as I see you boasting about things that just simply happen by accident or are absolutely rare and practically nonexistent, such as dodging every single missile that comes at you from every angle or some other elaborate claim. Once In a way, this may happen In TM2012 too actually. I have seen a number of scenarios where a player underestimated someone because of low health, and got utterly demolished because In their minds they assumed that a few simple fire and forget weapons would finish the job.

Once you become aware of what counters are available, and what to expect from generally each vehicle and playstyle, these baby-tactics are simply frowned upon and are proven ineffective. You can come and use the most basic to learn vehicle In the game, & a more seasoned player could beat you with the lowest class vehicle they can think of; simply because of a stronger usage order of attacks, knowledge of the terrain, pure talent to nail sliding power shots, rear napalms, manual fires, catch you In staggered situations, proper use of shields, capitalization of your terrible decisions and so on.

There Is a great layers upon layers of depth just simply In the hierarchy of regular players ability to compete in the strongest environments. A player may do well, a player may do great, then there are the players who perform a full package playstyle, and can make these players look average with consistency of high damage output, concentrated attacks (leading to personal points or assists), and In most cases, with the general positive K/D.

The fact that you assume a game you have played well over a decade Is far beyond anything another player from another TM would be capable of falls short, when you are making utterly half-baked claims about that which you have not experienced, as well as a scenario you are too afraid, or otherwise too stuborn to tackle head on. Formulating conclusions based on Ignorance seems to be the hallmark of those blinded by comfortable nostalgia.


I'm sorry, but TM:2012 just isn't THAT different than any of the other Twisteds.  Even with my complaints about it, it still plays very much like the other games, it just has these annoying deficiencies that make it unbearable.  Besides that, it plays JUST like TMHO, except it's buggier.  Many of us, myself included, spent an entire year trying to see if TMHO was better than we thought. TMHO is almost the identical game game mechanic wise, and all of the TMA players who stayed on and insisted on seeing if the game was good came back and said, "yeah, you're right, you were straight up right." 

The rest of your post arguing that we are ignorant is laughable because you are the one arguing from ignorance.  There are certain facts about the previous Twisteds and the most recent that are impossible to ignore if you're honest.  Are you aware that each Twisted, if you go into the actual guts of the programming, has a scale measuring how strong the tracking is on the weapons?  If you examine that and compare it TMB's is far less than TM:2012 and TMHO.  The higher you turn up that number the more it becomes near impossible to dodge things in the game.  TM:2012 and TMHO's is pretty damn high, and some weapons (like homings) are maxed.  Dodging in TMB isn't some accidental thing you see every once in a while.  It is a game changing event that happens in every match dozens of times.


Muddeh:  If you want to go the rounds on a specific mechanic you think I'm ignoring I'll do that now, but there are a few key rules:

1. You name ONE.  We do not move on until we address that ONE.

2. You keep it pithy.  You do some 22 paragraph rant about a game mechanic and I'm bailing.  It DOES NOT TAKE THAT LONG TO DESCRIBE A GAME MECHANIC.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #52 - 02/10/17 at 18:29:14
 
Muddeh wrote on 02/10/17 at 15:40:14:
First, I can hardly tell how you can simply look at a leaderboard and determine if someone is a newb based on stats. Second, if you're looking at the monthly leaderboard it resets at the start of each month, hence why you'd likely notice the stats wouldn't have been much larger than the weekly leaderboard when you looked. Third, we play unranked and not ranked. Our stats aren't recorded after matches. There's a number of casuals who get a kick out of playing ranked on a frequent basis, most of which are terrible players since they lack any competitive drive. I don't get the appeal, but different strokes for different folks I guess.


Simple answer.  The leaderboard shows who the top players are for a specific month, and it shows how long they've played.  All of the top players for the current month had times below one day - hence the assumption that they are newbs.

If you guys completely and 100% ignore ranked then that may explain it. 

Have you been playing the game much in the last month?
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #53 - 02/11/17 at 00:09:51
 
Yes, Ignorant in the sense that you have assumed that which you do not understand In the new TM. You don't have open mind of intelligence enough to rationalize an unbiased reconsideration. You simply formulated conclusions due to the short experiences you have had.

Nobody besides YOU ever argued that one was better than the other, and I actually never once claimed that this one was any different from the previous multi-player installments.

It's as Muddy says, you respond to messages without paying heed to the subject, If it Is on subject, It's a hideous misinterpretation, or some sort of write off due to the limitations you have set on your perception of the game you are oblivious to.

Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:29:14:
Simple answer.  The leaderboard shows who the top players are for a specific month, and it shows how long they've played.  All of the top players for the current month had times below one day - hence the assumption that they are newbs.

If you guys completely and 100% ignore ranked then that may explain it. 

Have you been playing the game much in the last month?


The Leaderboards are Irrelevant to your point. They measure primarily based off of XP In Ranked. Ranked Is an uncontrolled environment where we can go 10+ Kills, 10 Assists and 0 Deaths more often than not on a regular basis, so we essentially avoid It unless there is literally nothing happening, or we are busting a couple of boosters.

If Leaderboards went by more than how much you can Noob-Streak and rewarded Stat Whores Instead of Skilled Players, we might pay more attention to it.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #54 - 02/11/17 at 00:24:02
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:20:56:
...Are you aware that each Twisted, if you go into the actual guts of the programming, has a scale measuring how strong the tracking is on the weapons?  If you examine that and compare it TMB's is far less than TM:2012 and TMHO.  The higher you turn up that number the more it becomes near impossible to dodge things in the game.  TM:2012 and TMHO's is pretty damn high, and some weapons (like homings) are maxed.  Dodging in TMB isn't some accidental thing you see every once in a while.  It is a game changing event that happens in every match dozens of times.

Both games also have different level design so that comes into consideration, TMB has more empty large areas and undetailed barren spaces while TM12 has various details scattered on the levels that might absorb the weapons damage. TM12 also has a tighter driving so is easier to maneuver that in TMB so this it evens the (possible) design choice.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #55 - 02/11/17 at 00:35:08
 
The Deadite wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:24:02:
Both games also have different level design so that comes into consideration, TMB has more empty large areas and undetailed barren spaces while TM12 has various details scattered on the levels that might absorb the weapons damage. TM12 also has a tighter driving so is easier to maneuver that in TMB so this it evens the (possible) design choice.


You're right about the level differences, but I'm unsure where you got the idea that TM:2012's cars are more maneuverable.  Black's cars all have a higher rate of speed and a tighter turn ability.  If you pick Black's largest car (Minion) he turns sharper than his Jugg comparison.  He even turns sharper than the mid range choices.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #56 - 02/11/17 at 01:01:45
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:35:08:
You're right about the level differences, but I'm unsure where you got the idea that TM:2012's cars are more maneuverable...

Personally i found the driving in TMB to be "muddy", cars oversteer a lot and the brakes aren't that responsive, doesn't have the best controls in the series.

Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:35:08:
...If you pick Black's largest car (Minion) he turns sharper than his Jugg comparison.  He even turns sharper than the mid range choices.

Well that's because it falls on the boss category, he always had it's stats maxed out and control was one of those categories, also, the sharp steer was part of the boss fight behavior where he drifts around in order for you to shoot the panels.
I could be wrong because there might be differences between Boss Minion and Gameplay Minion other than size.

Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:35:08:
...If you pick Black's largest car (Minion) he turns sharper than his Jugg comparison...
I know Jugg is Minion's counterpart in TM12 but it isn't the best comparison either, Juggernaut has an attached trailer while Minion's is bolted in place. Jugg was never gonna able to drift like the rest of the vehicles so it drives like a stranded whale but makes it up with OP ram damage.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #57 - 02/11/17 at 01:30:24
 
Well this isn't an opinion issue.  Turning rates, speeds, stopping rates are all matters of testable objective fact.  If you don't believe me whip the two games out and compare:

1.  The radius on the turning for the vehicles.
2.  The top speeds of the vehicles (compare it to the surroundings, how fast it moves).
3.  The ability for the cars to hug the roads (TM:2012 has wider power slides - i.e. More situations to fly out of control).
4. Compare the brakes (Black's cars stop unnaturally - they come to a complete stop in almost no time flat).
5. Ability of cars to flip (in TM:2012 it's pretty easy, in TMB it's harder, in TMBO it's impossible).

This isn't surprising.  The team, starting with TMHO, said that a number of people preferred the "bumpier/bouncer/sloppier" feel brought about by the PSX limitations when they built TM1 and TM2.

Consequently they tried to imitate that floaty feeling with both TMHO and 2012. 
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #58 - 02/11/17 at 02:03:45
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 01:30:24:
Well this isn't an opinion issue.  Turning rates, speeds, stopping rates are all matters of testable objective fact.  If you don't believe me whip the two games out and compare.

I would actually love to do that but sadly, my PS2 has been fingerbanged to oblivion and i'm unable to play TMB.
I don't own a PS4 either.
I do remember getting frustrated with TMB a couple of times because i was unable to drive into the electric heal thingies while in a hurry, not to mention all those Darkside Slams that missed the target.

Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 01:30:24:
5. Ability of cars to flip (in TM:2012 it's pretty easy, in TMB it's harder, in TMBO it's impossible).

I'm aware that you are making a point about vehicle control but one of the reasons i like TM12, is the exagerated ram phisics, ramming enemies in Black is nowhere near as satisfying.

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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #59 - 02/11/17 at 02:20:10
 
The Deadite wrote on 02/11/17 at 02:03:45:
I do remember getting frustrated with TMB a couple of times because i was unable to drive into the electric heal thingies while in a hurry, not to mention all those Darkside Slams that missed the target.


Memory is an interesting thing.  If you're recalling it from the pre TM:2012 days it might just be that you got better at Twisted Metal over all.  I have the same memories - except now I can do those with ease (just as I'm sure Muddeh can drive cars in 2012 extremely well).

At any rate, my guess is the difficulty, particularly with Darkside, comes from the break neck speed.  Darkside goes extremely fast and even though her turning is amazing, it's not enough to compensate for the bullet rams she pulls off.

The Deadite wrote on 02/11/17 at 02:03:45:
I'm aware that you are making a point about vehicle control but one of the reasons i like TM12, is the exagerated ram phisics, ramming enemies in Black is nowhere near as satisfying.


I get that.  If you like to see cars fly around the place (though keep in mind they rarely really are flying around - what happens on your PS3 isn't usually happening on your opponent's) TM:2012's rams are more satisfying. 
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