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TM2012 needs to slow down! (Read 8040 times)
Malefactor
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #15 - 02/07/17 at 19:27:04
 
The Deadite wrote on 02/07/17 at 19:13:58:
Hey anyone remembers when the games most important part was the SP portion?
I do, that was cool.

And yes you are blowing this out of proportion to accommodate your self imposed facts (TM12 being marketed as an online focus game), i've played the shit out of this game and found very few glitches, less alone game breaking ones... Nevermind i'm not putting the online and singleplayer on the same bag.

i can understand people don't liking the game but calling it a cancerous piece of shit is just too much, game negatives don't surpass it's pros by that much of a margin.


How was me calling it marketed as an online multiplayer game a self imposed fact?

It was stated numerous times by Jaffe, by the team (when I played it at their demo station they mentioned it countless times), the numerous magazine articles . . .

I'm not the one using alternative facts here.  That is you.  The single player was tacked on last minute.  It never would have had a single player component when the game was first conceived because they believed multiplayer was where the real strength of Twisted Metal lies (a belief I agree with, but I don't think the team knew how to pull it off).

You like it.  Great.  Clearly your quality standards for a Twisted Metal are far below mine.  The good news is if there is ever another one you'll probably like it.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #16 - 02/07/17 at 21:14:48
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 19:27:04:
The single player was tacked on last minute.  It never would have had a single player component when the game was first conceived because they believed multiplayer was where the real strength of Twisted Metal lies (a belief I agree with, but I don't think the team knew how to pull it off).
how was the singleplayer tacked on last minute?
It has extensive boss fights, a lot of cutscenes mixing CGI and live actors (and more were partially filmed but scrapped at the last minute) and some game modes exclusive only to SP.

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 19:27:04:
You like it.  Great.  Clearly your quality standards for a Twisted Metal are far below mine...
Well if liking this game is having low standards then sure, i'm easily pleased why not. Proud of liking the game despite it's flaws.

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 19:27:04:
...The good news is if there is ever another one you'll probably like it.
Yeah i will, hopefully that happens and i can be arguing with you about the game's quality yet again.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #17 - 02/07/17 at 21:35:13
 
The Deadite wrote on 02/07/17 at 21:14:48:
how was the singleplayer tacked on last minute?
It has extensive boss fights, a lot of cutscenes mixing CGI and live actors (and more were partially filmed but scrapped at the last minute) and some game modes exclusive only to SP.


Last minute means towards the twilight of the game's design.  it wasn't originally intended.

It's also evidenced by how badly done the single player is.  It has the most shallow of all of the Twisted Metal game's AI.  Jaffe said an unfortunate aspect of Black was how hard and difficult it was, and at times, cheap, but then 2012's AI was straight up off the map cheap.

In single player the computer can often one hit kill you with the sniper EVEN WITHOUT CHARGING IT. Game modes are implemented with little thought for balance.  The most obvious is the always maligned races.  In previous Twisteds, any car could beat any level, but in this version, you simply HAVE to be the speedy cars in order to pass the races.  Furthermore, the races often come down to pure luck.  Did everything line up or not?  If they did you win the race.  If not, start again.

Those types of bad game design are evidence of a mode that really didn't get near the time and attention it deserved, which is probably why pretty much everyone says the single player aspect of the game was forgettable.  It's evident in release reviews and numerous fan reviews even today.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #18 - 02/07/17 at 22:35:16
 
The Deadite wrote on 02/06/17 at 00:50:40:
And i bet this forum is pretty dead because Sony did an awful job in the publicity department of TMX, not because old time fans despised the game. They failed attracting newcomers and reigniting interest on the series from the public.


It seems every so often we have a special kind of noob like you that trickles into the site. These special kind of noobs all regurgitate the same incorrect statements and appear to know it all.

I especially like that ones that join and within a month are telling us the forum is dead because sony didn't market the game enough. Here is a tip, It might be a good idea to research if you are going to comment about something you are brand new to and have no experience with. In this case going back and reading past forum threads to see why the forum is dead.

For the record sony did what marketing the game allowed them to do. David Jaffe praised sony and even said "sony was great to us" for the job they did. What more do you think sony should have done? Should they of made a commerical saying "hey everyone don't listen to everyone returning the game because connection/crash issues, come on down and get fucked! It is the best TM ever if it works!"

Truth of the matter is you don't need marketing to do well. Word of mouth is all you need especailly when we have this cool thing called the internet.

Twisted Metal's #1 stregth was and always will be multiplayer especailly online multiplayer. Malefactor already stated the facts above so I will not list them again. Even if the above facts didn't exist or were not true, for the majority of people ALL of the REPLAY VALUE comes from online multiplayer.

The Deadite wrote on 02/07/17 at 05:36:44:
Sure the online portion is important and it was broken as fuck

You admit the online is "important and broken as fuck" but it doesn't make up for the entirety of the experience? Glad you loved the single player and were fine with online not working right. However Since all the REPLAY VALUE for the majority of people is in online play. The "entirety of the experience" consisted of watching the "network error" screen while playing room roulette.

Calling it a "cancerous piece of shit" is an accurate statement. Cancer kills and TMX sadly killed this series. However maybe a better more politically correct statement would be "It was a lovely experience that fell short".

Muddeh wrote on 02/07/17 at 10:29:50:
He is baiting. Sadly, he's part of the fringe but vocal minority that hated the most recent titles to such an extent that he wouldn't support the development of a future Twisted Metal, and has stated it multiple times.

Muddeh we've been over this many times already. We aren't fanboys who will blindly support anything with Twisted Metal's or Sweet Tooth's name slapped on it. We supported Twisted Metal prior to TMX because they created a great foundation that enabled TM to be the best and most fun it could. From TM1 to TM2 to TMB they continued to improve on and progress forwards. TMX shit all over this and went backwards. If a new Twisted Metal ever comes and it picks up where TMB left off and improves and moves the series forward then we will support it. The reality through is is will most likely be the same experience without the network errors or a worse one and we will not support it simply because it is called Twisted Metal.

It would be great if enough of us still owned TMX and could stomach playing it for a few weeks. Just to show you nothing has changed and the game still lacks the depth of past TMs. It wouldn't take long till a group of us that haven't played the game since months after launch were taking turns winning with a group of "pros" that have been playing since launch.

I hope you do play TMBO at some point as well. I hope you really play it and don't show up for 30 mins one night jsut to claim you've played. I hope you play just enough that you come to the realization of "OH MY GOD..... I GET It NOW....".
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #19 - 02/07/17 at 22:49:09
 
The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
Muddeh . . . I hope you do play TMBO at some point as well. I hope you really play it and don't show up for 30 mins one night jsut to claim you've played. I hope you play just enough that you come to the realization of "OH MY GOD..... I GET It NOW....".


I genuinely hope the same thing.  We've had a few TM:2012 players switch over and give Black a try, and every single damn one of them has had the same, "Holy shit you weren't kidding.  This game is sooo much more complex . . ." Type of experience.

You have to give it a few months because despite the bullshit written above, after a lengthy time with TM:2012, TMBO FEELS FASTER.  Yes, the weapons are slightly slower, but that's ALL that's slower.  It takes a minute to get your sea legs for 2001's masterpiece.

Once you do though, and you realize you're playing a car combat game where you can dodge ten homing missiles in quick succession thrown at you and follow it up with a 69 point satellite drop on another opponent . . . And all without losing your default game settings . . .

Why in God's name would you ever go back?
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #20 - 02/07/17 at 23:09:47
 
I encourage you to play as well Muddeh. We have our disagreements on TMX but I'm not gonna try and discourage you or others from playing TMBO with us.

Play with us consistently and you'll get use to the pacing and get better as you go basically.   Wink
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #21 - 02/08/17 at 01:37:46
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 21:35:13:
...In previous Twisteds, any car could beat any level, but in this version, you simply HAVE to be the speedy cars in order to pass the races.  Furthermore, the races often come down to pure luck.  Did everything line up or not?  If they did you win the race.  If not, start again. 

That's how races work? You have to have the faster car?
I know TM is hardly a grounded game  but this is basic logic, did you expect to win a race against  a supercar with an ice cream truck? (To be fair, this perfectly schievable with the ridiculous Sweet Bot)
I know i'm probably in the minority but personally, i liked the TM12 races just as i liked the obstacle courses in TM:HO,  something else to do besides fighting other cars.

Sometimes the frenetic nature of the gameplay is too much for the concept of racing, i should know this because i win the races in the first try most of the times. (Diesel City is another beast though, sometimes it's jumps and tight spaces are too much)

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 21:35:13:
Last minute means towards the twilight of the game's design.  it wasn't originally intended.

Well, allegedly  the game was delayed in order to refine the gameplay so the alternate endings/cutscenes lost priority.
Kinda the opposite of what happened in Black.

The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
It seems every so often we have a special kind of noob like you that trickles into the site. These special kind of noobs all regurgitate the same incorrect statements and appear to know it all.

Sorry i'm disrupting your echo chamber?
I know is annoying to find someone with an opposing opinion, if i'm wrong you could just link threads or whatever to prove your point . But i guess is more easy to just call me an special noob and telling me to look though god knows how many threads in this forum just to keep up.

The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
You admit the online is "important and broken as fuck" but it doesn't make up for the entirety of the experience? Glad you loved the single player and were fine with online not working right..

I've never said i'm "fine" with the multiplayer being broke. I know online adds a lot of replay value to any game, you can still be messing around with it months or years after you were done with the main campaign. Maybe the pace of the game is too much for online to work properly but is a shame how it resulted because sure it was promising.

I just find unfair how the game is called a cancer that killed the series,  like it had zero reedemable qualities. But meh, i'm getting an idea that's the consensus here, your mind is set and i know for a fact people don't change of opinion. I have my reasons to love the game and you have yours to hate it. I don't want to drag this shit.
This isn't even on topic.


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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #22 - 02/08/17 at 04:13:00
 
The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 01:37:46:
Sorry i'm disrupting your echo chamber?
I know is annoying to find someone with an opposing opinion, if i'm wrong you could just link threads or whatever to prove your point . But i guess is more easy to just call me an special noob and telling me to look though god knows how many threads in this forum just to keep up.


There is a difference between fact and opinion. For example If I were to say this is a twisted metal forum. That is a fact, you could argue it is something else but you just look stupid doing it.

I'm stating facts however you are arguing YOUR opinion. No matter how much you argue your opinion, you are not going to change the facts.

I will not be playing detective and linking the tons of threads from around the time before TMX released and months after.

You can put in the time and go through reading them. A better solution would be to just not comment on something you are completely ignorant on.

If I were to go join another game forum and someone said the forum is dead because the community didn't like the latest release. I would take their word on it because I have no idea since I wasn't around.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #23 - 02/08/17 at 04:53:36
 
The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 01:37:46:
That's how races work? You have to have the faster car?
I know TM is hardly a grounded game  but this is basic logic, did you expect to win a race against  a supercar with an ice cream truck? (To be fair, this perfectly schievable with the ridiculous Sweet Bot)
I know i'm probably in the minority but personally, i liked the TM12 races just as i liked the obstacle courses in TM:HO,  something else to do besides fighting other cars.

Sometimes the frenetic nature of the gameplay is too much for the concept of racing, i should know this because i win the races in the first try most of the times. (Diesel City is another beast though, sometimes it's jumps and tight spaces are too much)
Well, allegedly  the game was delayed in order to refine the gameplay so the alternate endings/cutscenes lost priority.
Kinda the opposite of what happened in Black.


You are in the minority.  Most people hated the races. YES, races usually take the fastest cars . . . which is precisely why it doens't belong in Twisted Metal.  Keep it in goddamn Gran Turismo, where it's actually done well.

Also, the gripes about "I'm sick of car combat and want to do something else" ring pretty hollow to me.  It's like someone playing Street Fighter V and saying, "I'm tired of playing this fighter, I want Ryu in a spaceship."  That's the kind of bullshit said by developers who don't have faith in their series and fans that really don't care as much about car combat as they pretend to.

That Black jab at the end was total bullshit you just made up.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #24 - 02/08/17 at 07:04:34
 
Wasn't really a jab though, David Jaffe said that they got too caught in the cutscenes/stories to properly refine the gameplay.
Believe this was said in either the Dark Ages movie that came with TM:HO Twisted Edition or some random interview i've read a time ago.

Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 04:53:36:
Also, the gripes about "I'm sick of car combat and want to do something else" ring pretty hollow to me.  It's like someone playing Street Fighter V and saying, "I'm tired of playing this fighter, I want Ryu in a spaceship." 

Funny how are you putting words in my mouth, i don't see what's the problem with other game modes as long as the car combat sections are still there. Some variety never hurt anyone.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #25 - 02/08/17 at 07:57:44
 
The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 07:04:34:
Wasn't really a jab though, David Jaffe said that they got too caught in the cutscenes/stories to properly refine the gameplay.
Believe this was said in either the Dark Ages movie that came with TM:HO Twisted Edition or some random interview i've read a time ago.

Funny how are you putting words in my mouth, i don't see what's the problem with other game modes as long as the car combat sections are still there. Some variety never hurt anyone.


I wasn't putting words in your mouth.  I was quoting you.  You are the one who said it gives you something to do BESIDES car combat.  That literally means you feel like the car combat needs broken up.

Deadite:  "I love this racing.  It's a nice break from the car combat."

Me: "So the excitement was wearing off?"

Deadite: "Don't put words in my mouth.

The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 07:04:34:
Wasn't really a jab though, David Jaffe said that they got too caught in the cutscenes/stories to properly refine the gameplay.
Believe this was said in either the Dark Ages movie that came with TM:HO Twisted Edition or some random interview i've read a time ago.


That's because Dave Jaffe was never the reason the gameplay was amazing in the first place. 

Dave focused on atmosphere and story for TM2 and TMB.  For TMB in particular, the Incognito team focused on TMB.  Yeah, I get that in Dave's opinion TMB's gameplay suffered, but that's because he's a freaking ego maniac who assumed because he had very little to do with it it must have been lacking. 

He didn't even have a clue what that gameplay really consisted of.  He said so in numerous interviews later when he, upset that we didn't like his new game, told people essentially, "I had no idea you could do that in TMB . . ."

What's humorous about your statement is that the same damn thing happened in TMB.  Remember how you said you didn't like the short comic book endings of the bonus characters?  Yeah think about that one.  They were short and cheap because they ran out of time and money and had to focus on eliminating bugs and perfecting gameplay.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #26 - 02/08/17 at 10:15:04
 
Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 18:09:56:
Perhaps it's baiting a bit, but more or less just not being diplomatic about it.  It's common fan base (of any game mind you) to blame the publisher as if in every scenario it's the publisher's fault.  Fact is sometimes it's the game's developer.  Sony made a business decision that made sense.

Nobody here is suggesting that ESP could do no wrong. They were the root cause of TM 2012's failures, but at the same time, Sony certainly has blood on its hands too. In my opinion, Sony's executive decision to have ESP tack on a half-baked single player at the expense of funnelling time and resources out of the online experience was a major cause of why the game was so rushed and hastily coded.

I'm sure that expanding the scope of the game granted the team more time for development, but it clearly wasn't enough considering so many features intended for online play had to be dropped. Heck, the game was originally slated for October 2011, and it wasn't until less than two months before the planned release date that it was pushed back into 2012. I can imagine the deadline was a panic for most of 2011 (considering they barely made the 2012 deadline and still required a day one patch), hence the game's lack of polish.

Twisted Metal is a prime example that if you push out a product fast and cheap, it will most likely lack quality. Suggesting that the level of bugs present in the game at launch was purely because ESP was incompetent is extremely short-sighted. Yes, there are an endless number of issues with the design and gameplay that can't be attributed to Sony, but as far as the glitches and network errors go, you can't not place some level of responsibility on the publisher for placing such pressure on a small contracted dev. 

It's not a black and white issue, and every party played a part. Even when ESP's contract expired and it was in the hands of SMS to tweak and patch the game (the expenses for which are a drop in the bucket for Sony), there was no sense of urgency and it took them far too long to make extremely obvious and necessary tweaks. The blame is on Sony for not allocating the resources to that effort. It's a terrible idea for Sony to not support its exclusives, because there's a lot more on the line than just a single game. Exclusives are what drive people to purchase consoles, and as long as Sony doesn't have an exclusive experience I can't already play on PC, like a AAA vehicle combat game, a consumer like me has no reason to invest in their hardware.

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 18:09:56:
You rarely have any idea about what you're talking about.

Case in point.  In the above you point out that TM:2012's health and weapons were on a timer.

Same is true of TMBO.  So . . . I've pointed out on numerous occasions (and so has The Truth mind you) how this kind of thing, which you do on a regular basis, just makes you look clueless.

Are you sure? Are you really, really sure?



Considering you are wrong, you are one of two things:

1. Someone uninformed about the game you rant and rave about, to the point that a TM 2012 player knows more about it than you do, and in an effort to call me clueless you simply made yourself to look clueless yourself.
2. A bigot who figured you could present an alternative fact and have it go unnoticed. It's especially ironic that you ignored first two sections of my post (which I presume from you lack of objection you simply agree with, regardless that it contradicts your earlier statements)... aside from this one attempt at correcting me, which you got wrong.

Perhaps if you think I'm a TM 2012 fanboy while I criticize the game to the extent I do, perhaps you should check yourself to see if you're irrational about your attachment to TMBO yourself. There's no need to be a TMBO apologist yourself, because Black is fantastic game. Nobody denies that. Either you're willingly ignorant to its few faults, or are willing to blatantly lie for the sake of your own pride.

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 21:35:13:
In previous Twisteds, any car could beat any level, but in this version, you simply HAVE to be the speedy cars in order to pass the races.  Furthermore, the races often come down to pure luck.  Did everything line up or not?  If they did you win the race.  If not, start again. .

This might come as news to you, but you can also win the races by killing every opponent, making it very possible to win with any vehicle (especially considering the HP for all the opponents is dramatically for the races). Fun fact: I hold the world record times for all the race stages on twisted difficulty having used Shadow for each one. Shadow isn't particularly speedy. Yes, it's usually easier to win just by completing the race and killing off the few other lightweights that may pose a threat, but you aren't boxed into that strategy. In fact, killing the enemies is easier in the Diesel City stage with there being less opponents, which is likely why ESP made checkpoints for that event rather than gates, so you can go off-track. You'd be aware of this if you played the game in the last four and a half years, perhaps).

And for the record, I don't endorse the races having been included in the game. I would have rather seen the resources put into designing those events and coding the AI invested in the online components of the game. Twisted Metal isn't combat racing; it's vehicle combat. Same with the bosses. I certainly got my money's worth out of playing the different stages, but wouldn't want to see entire events dedicated to them in a future game.

The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
We aren't fanboys who will blindly support anything with Twisted Metal's or Sweet Tooth's name slapped on it.

Did you not read me write "We want a new Twisted Metal. We want it done right."? Yes, I don't want to see another Twisted Metal that fails the genre. Don't put words in my mouth, and don't make out as if the brand is ruined with the presumption that everyone shares your same personal vendetta towards Sony, Jaffe, the dev team, and so on. Yeah, they fucked up with TM 2012, but it's still very possible we'll see another strong entry in the series in the future. Simply put, you're a part of an extreme minority that happens to be vocal due to the negativity that has surrounded this forum for many years. How many people do you see on social media, YouTube and so on saying "I hope this series stays dead because there will never be a good vehicle combat game again"? Virtually nobody. Fans want a new game, and if questioned about it, of course they'd agree they want it done right.

The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
It would be great if enough of us still owned TMX and could stomach playing it for a few weeks. Just to show you nothing has changed and the game still lacks the depth of past TMs. It wouldn't take long till a group of us that haven't played the game since months after launch were taking turns winning with a group of "pros" that have been playing since launch.

How typical of you. All words, no action. Very ironic considering you're supposedly "The Truth" and multiple times you have barked claims that it would take little effort to beat a TM 2012 player at their own game, but never have any intention of ever backing up such grandiose claims. Perhaps you should change your username to "My Opinion". Or perhaps for you to perceive something as the truth, it doesn't require proof or merit and simply has to align with your worldview.

One of these days, you should put your money where your mouth is. I'd imagine since you say you spent time with the game upon release you'll be aware of the maps, vehicles and general abilities in the game, so I'm sure it would take little time for you to become adept with the game if your view of it being a spamfest is correct. It only costs $15 and a little knowledge of a stripped-down game you believe lacks depth to prove your point. Wink

Spag wrote on 02/07/17 at 23:09:47:
I encourage you to play as well Muddeh. We have our disagreements on TMX but I'm not gonna try and discourage you or others from playing TMBO with us.

Play with us consistently and you'll get use to the pacing and get better as you go basically.   Wink

Thanks, looking forward to it. Smiley
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #27 - 02/08/17 at 18:49:40
 
The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 01:37:46:
...something else to do besides fighting other cars.


Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 04:53:36:
"I'm sick of car combat and want to do something else"


Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 07:57:44:
I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was quoting you.


Clearly you weren't, i never used the words "i'm sick of the car combat", that's going to extremes, just saying i don't dissaprove of the game adding other events besides car combat in order to keep things fresh . Neither is comparable adding spaceships levels to street fighter to adding races to a game with cars.

Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 07:57:44:
What's humorous about your statement is that the same damn thing happened in TMB.  Remember how you said you didn't like the short comic book endings of the bonus characters?  Yeah think about that one.  They were short and cheap because they ran out of time and money and had to focus on eliminating bugs and perfecting gameplay.

TMB still has more movies that in TM12?
Remember this was also the early 2000's and these kind of CGI cutscenes were more time consuming and difficult to do that today. So yeah, more time and resources were directed to TMB's movies than the ones of the last game.

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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #28 - 02/08/17 at 18:50:57
 
Yes, I'm sure, at least as it pertains to full healths in TMBO.  For example, the full healths in TMBO regenerate every 2 minutes exactly.  As for the minis, that could be a different case but I think there you have more variety.  The helicopter minis do in fact re spawn on a consistent timed basis.  The ground ones are harder to discern what algorithm they're on.

I don't personally see any problem with Sony asking them to do a single player expansion.  They were given two years to do it and additional funding.  Considering Black had two years for its single player . . .

It's just hard for me to see what the problem was.  My personal opinion is Dave chose to blow the majority of the budget for the single player on the far more expensive cinematic movies.  I don't feel they were worth it.  I thought they were COOL, but I'd rather have had the more fleshed out experiences of before.

That's just my opinion though.
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Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Reply #29 - 02/08/17 at 19:13:55
 
The spawn location of the full health is still random though. They will sometime spawn on a unoccupied small health spot. Imagine one spawning right on top of you. Grin

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:49:09:
And all without losing your default game settings . . .
Except you guys banned health. The way you guys play the game is pretending that the health doesn't exist. That's not using everything the game forces you to have on the stage. An invisible health turn off option.
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