Twisted Metal Alliance: Temporary Forum

Grimgravesite13 Superhero Accountant Offline Rides a Pale Horse. Posts: 61 Gender:	Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4 Reply #15 - 06/15/20 at 00:59:11 So we are all in agreement that TM 3 and 4 were bad... but why did 989 drop the ball when they help make TM 2??? WTF!? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72H7MfVnIuc
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TwistedChains

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Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4
Reply #16 - 06/17/20 at 17:55:21

Grimgravesite13 wrote on 06/15/20 at 00:59:11:

So we are all in agreement that TM 3 and 4 were bad... but why did 989 drop the ball when they help make TM 2???

WTF!? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72H7MfVnIuc

Just as I suspected: I looked on the back of my black label TM2 game from, literally, the 1996 release year and there is no 989 on the back. I suspected it was likely on the greatest hits release, and wouldn't you know:

"Two years after its release, Twisted Metal 2 was re-released as a PlayStation Greatest Hits game, however under the developer 989 Studios instead of SingleTrac. It was also released for download in Japan and North America on the PlayStation Network in 2007." - Wikipedia

I actually remember hearing about this but had forgotten. 989 was slapped on there because Sony could no longer place singletrac on there. Not sure if they're shown on the actual greatest hits game...? But, moral of the story: 989 had nothing to do with TM2 other than taking over and nearly killing the brand.

Also, check out that like to dislike ratio on that video link you shared...

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Infernal The 16th man to successfully perform open heart surgery on himself while drunk. Well, I suppose "successful" is a relative term. It's true that he lived, but for the rest of his life he had to dress as a # leprechaun or his heart would stop. Offline Posts: 1641	Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4 Reply #17 - 06/18/20 at 22:44:46 There's people out there still brain dead...989 helped MAKE TM2??? Cmon...the TM fanbase are such loons.
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Grimgravesite13

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Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4
Reply #18 - 06/18/20 at 23:24:44

I know about only Singletrac making TM2 but to not credit them even on the Greatest Hits version would just be a slap in the face. Especially how bad 3 and 4 are. Surprising no one got sued over this and yes its on the Greatest Hits I checked my copy of Greatest Hits. Odd I never noticed it but I have had it since I was a kid. Now the only thing I could think of is if 989 took TM2 and became the company to distribute the Greatest Hits version thus the credit.

TwistedChains wrote on 06/17/20 at 17:55:21:

Just as I suspected: I looked on the back of my black label TM2 game from, literally, the 1996 release year and there is no 989 on the back. I suspected it was likely on the greatest hits release, and wouldn't you know:

"Two years after its release, Twisted Metal 2 was re-released as a PlayStation Greatest Hits game, however under the developer 989 Studios instead of SingleTrac. It was also released for download in Japan and North America on the PlayStation Network in 2007." - Wikipedia

I actually remember hearing about this but had forgotten. 989 was slapped on there because Sony could no longer place singletrac on there. Not sure if they're shown on the actual greatest hits game...? But, moral of the story: 989 had nothing to do with TM2 other than taking over and nearly killing the brand.

Also, check out that like to dislike ratio on that video link you shared...

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Infernal

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Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4
Reply #19 - 06/19/20 at 22:25:10

Guess you don't know about the beef between Sony and SingleTrac.

To sum it up, SingleTrac were furious that Sony was getting the bigger cut in revenue from TM2's sales. SingleTrac decided to leave and take their engine with them as well. TM3 was supposed to use SingleTrac's engine but 989 took over and had to start from scratch essentially.

If anything, them denying SingleTrac credit on the Greatest Hits release was a case of bad blood for that time being.

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Grimgravesite13

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Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4
Reply #20 - 06/19/20 at 23:14:52

I herd about the bad blood but to just give 989 credit for a project they had nothing to do with seems criminal my question why no law suit by Singletrac? The next question is why after that slap in the face did Jaffe still work with Sony but I supose the check was nice...

Infernal wrote on 06/19/20 at 22:25:10:

Guess you don't know about the beef between Sony and SingleTrac.

To sum it up, SingleTrac were furious that Sony was getting the bigger cut in revenue from TM2's sales. SingleTrac decided to leave and take their engine with them as well. TM3 was supposed to use SingleTrac's engine but 989 took over and had to start from scratch essentially.

If anything, them denying SingleTrac credit on the Greatest Hits release was a case of bad blood for that time being.

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MoshTMA

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Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4
Reply #21 - 06/20/20 at 02:00:56

Grimgravesite13 wrote on 06/19/20 at 23:14:52:

I herd about the bad blood but to just give 989 credit for a project they had nothing to do with seems criminal my question why no law suit by Singletrac? The next question is why after that slap in the face did Jaffe still work with Sony but I supose the check was nice...

I will try to settle this confusion.
Dave Jaffe and his first partner Mike Giam were originally part of Sony Imagesoft (where they worked on Mickey Mania), and in 1995 prior to the western release of Playstation Sony Imagesoft was merged with Sony Computer Entertainment of America (SCEA) and was renamed Sony Interactive Studios America (SISA).
SISA worked with Singletrac in designing Twisted Metal 2 but in 1998 SISA was renamed, and became 989 Studios, thus why on the greatest hits version of TM2 989 Studios is credited, even though it's a big lie.
Singletrac couldn't sue because Twisted Metal is a property of Sony. They own it. The concept was created by Sony's guys. Singletrac only owned the gameplay engine which they took with them to work on Critical Depth and Rogue Trip, games that were spinoffs of Twisted Metal, but they lost their marketing advantage by not having Sony Computer Entertainment/SCE (who later became Sony Interactive Entertainment) as a publisher unfortunately.
Luckily for me I don't have the Greatest Hits version of TM2, I have the original without the 989 logo, but it's a case of false branding, for sure, but there was nothing legally wrong with what they did.
The original version doesn't give Singletrac any credit on the front or back cover either, outside of a small text mention, so really both versions (original & GH version) are in the wrong from a moral (but not legal) standpoint.

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Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4
Reply #22 - 06/20/20 at 14:14:26

Grimgravesite13 wrote on 06/19/20 at 23:14:52:

I herd about the bad blood but to just give 989 credit for a project they had nothing to do with seems criminal my question why no law suit by Singletrac? The next question is why after that slap in the face did Jaffe still work with Sony but I supose the check was nice...

Bad blood doesnt even explain it. SingleTrac tried holding their source code hostage after being bought by GT, Demanding sony to hire them to make a Twisted metal 3, which in retaliation sony said no.

This lead to singletrac making Rouge trip and 989 pushing out TM3 in a few months.

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Grimgravesite13

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Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4
Reply #23 - 06/20/20 at 16:03:12

People have been sued for less in USA even if they didn't own it. The real odd thing is out of all the interviews I've watched with Jaffe and Singletrac team they breeze over this. Jaffe just goes "yea 989 has it now" but he was busy doing other projects at the time. Doesn't even mention about 989 getting credit for his brain child.

History - http://temp.tmalliance.com/?num=1552669240

MoshTMA wrote on 06/20/20 at 02:00:56:

I will try to settle this confusion.
Dave Jaffe and his first partner Mike Giam were originally part of Sony Imagesoft (where they worked on Mickey Mania), and in 1995 prior to the western release of Playstation Sony Imagesoft was merged with Sony Computer Entertainment of America (SCEA) and was renamed Sony Interactive Studios America (SISA).
SISA worked with Singletrac in designing Twisted Metal 2 but in 1998 SISA was renamed, and became 989 Studios, thus why on the greatest hits version of TM2 989 Studios is credited, even though it's a big lie.
Singletrac couldn't sue because Twisted Metal is a property of Sony. They own it. The concept was created by Sony's guys. Singletrac only owned the gameplay engine which they took with them to work on Critical Depth and Rogue Trip, games that were spinoffs of Twisted Metal, but they lost their marketing advantage by not having Sony Computer Entertainment/SCE (who later became Sony Interactive Entertainment) as a publisher unfortunately.
Luckily for me I don't have the Greatest Hits version of TM2, I have the original without the 989 logo, but it's a case of false branding, for sure, but there was nothing legally wrong with what they did.
The original version doesn't give Singletrac any credit on the front or back cover either, outside of a small text mention, so really both versions (original & GH version) are in the wrong from a moral (but not legal) standpoint.

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Infernal The 16th man to successfully perform open heart surgery on himself while drunk. Well, I suppose "successful" is a relative term. It's true that he lived, but for the rest of his life he had to dress as a # leprechaun or his heart would stop. Offline Posts: 1641	Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4 Reply #24 - 06/20/20 at 20:31:35 They may have never noticed the changes, or cared. After all, the Twisted Metal franchise is owned by Sony and has always been owned by them. Never knew that SingleTrac were shown almost no credit in the game's original release on the box, quite messed up.
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Grimgravesite13

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Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4
Reply #25 - 06/21/20 at 00:24:27

Thats my point though. They launched one of the biggest Playstation franchises without credit and getting kicked when down. Really messed up.

Infernal wrote on 06/20/20 at 20:31:35:

They may have never noticed the changes, or cared. After all, the Twisted Metal franchise is owned by Sony and has always been owned by them.

Never knew that SingleTrac were shown almost no credit in the game's original release on the box, quite messed up.

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Re: whats worse? tm 3 or 4
Reply #26 - 07/01/20 at 01:51:27

Grimgravesite13 wrote on 06/21/20 at 00:24:27:

Thats my point though. They launched one of the biggest Playstation franchises without credit and getting kicked when down. Really messed up.

Honestly if I had to choose a side Singletrac would be the dickish one.

Nobody really cares about it though, even years later in interviews, because the whole dispute was just about money, and they all did okay in the end.

People make fun of the, "It's not personal, it's business" line but the truth is most of the time in the business world it really is NOT personal. It's all about money.

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Question: which is worse? tm 3 or 4
twisted metal 3 twisted metal 4 « Created by: Hippie HE-MAN on: 11/07/16 at 14:59:15 »

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