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Reinventing the Wheel (Mods, Please Read) (Read 6985 times)
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Reinventing the Wheel (Mods, Please Read)
07/05/15 at 19:27:49
 
So, it occurs to me that we haven't had a Twisted Metal title for a few years, and that this community although some of it's veterans post from time to time hasn't been all that active. Can't blame any of you, everyone has a social life and most of you probably keep in touch through AIM or Friends List on your consoles.

I don't recall if it was Magnum, SCoLD or MAWSH that wrote up a document on revising car combat gameplay but I remember someone made a post on how they'd go about making the next game. If someone has a copy of this, I'd really like to talk to them about it. We're overdue on a new game, and like Archminion said not that long ago, pretty sure Jaffe is burnt out on Twisted Metal for awhile. So, we've played Rogue Trip, Critical Depth, and Vigilante 8. We've seen what works and doesn't work.

What would give you the most joy in a new Car Combat title?

For me it's the balance of gameplay while making the story interesting. If I don't have characters or a narrative I can sink my teeth into, I'm not interested. Dunno what that says about my taste considering TM is about essentially a Sociopathic Race Car Driver turned Powerful Sorcerer who grants wishes like some kind of Fucked Up Genie. But that's the novelty of the series, it's a lynchpin that works.

Apologies if this belongs on Brawl on the Wall but I feel/felt that this is more the realm for Veterans of the TM series like RoaDIE who can elaborate on mechanics he enjoys or would like to see implemented.


Features I'd like to see implemented:
*Ability to Break Suspension - I'd like to see people rushing and having to serpentine to get to a health station before they are utterly destroyed by an incoming fire missile.
*Radio Taunts ala Unreal Tournament (How great would it be to be able to rag on your enemy without resorting to the mentality of Children raised on Halo's <or more recently League of Legends and Call of Duty's> multiplayer xD)
*Advancing Storyline (We've seen multiple iterations of this game and not one of them has really taken the initiative to move forward. Only folks who have seen any real advancement was Charlie Kane in TM1 to Dark Tooth in TM2 or Simon Whittlebone becoming a ghost. I get it's a multiplayer oriented game but let's give it some teeth! Hire on a comic writer like David Hine to give the pre existing characters some more flesh.)
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Re: Reinventing the Wheel (Mods, Please Read)
Reply #1 - 07/07/15 at 03:10:05
 
Aside from people having lives outside video games this site has been pretty dead because of how divisive Twisted Metal 2012 was. Older TM fans felt great disappointment in a glitchy title that offered no new TM characters and one that offered no real competitive play since the game was not balanced and had too many exploits that ruined the chance of fair play. There were those who liked TMX but for some reason felt it necessary to shun the TMA/old school community without really offering any real insight to what was good about the new direction TM took, and really only seemd to like TMX because they were good at it. Still haven't seen a great defense of the TMX style.

Your ideas are not bad though I'm against full healths in competitive play. I like the idea of Taunting other drivers as a game-play feature.

I'd say for a next Twisted Metal I'd like to see the following trends reversed

-Instead of MORE homing weapons, TM should have less.

-No Sniper weapons. It doesn't belong in car combat.

-Instead of MORE of the same types of Special weapons, TM should go back to the variety offered in the past. There is no reason several cars need the same kind of special. The whole point of calling them SPECIALS was because they are meant to be unique attacks.

-Vehicles need a specific driver. The idea of having 4 characters/factions that can drive any of the vehicles cheapens the experience for me.

-Car switching in a match was not a great idea. Players get too obsessed with what players they dislike choose, and it becomes an annoying back and forth competition to outdo the other player by picking vehicles that could have an advantage over the other. Either the feature needs to be done with or limited so you can only change your vehicle one time.

-Arenas need to stop getting larger in Twisted Metal. Unless the next game is massive and holds up to 20+ players, there is no reason for extra large maps. Medium sized arenas with enough open space and cool destructible stuff that do not get in the way of combat are better.

-The next game needs more weather variety and other factors to keep maps from being boring without interfering with the combat experience.

-The next game needs more characters, real stories, but no "Story Mode". Just a classic Arcade tournament with a intro/middle/end cutscene would suffice, but what should be done different is maybe have the stories connect better. If there were to be a separate "story mode" episodes it should center on Calypso since he's not a driver, thus it would make sense to elaborate on his story apart from the car combat. I agree a comic book writer would be best for a task like that.

-Team Modes need to be done right. The next TM needs to be smarter in team matchmaking, and make an effort to keep games from being ruined, like booting idle players, stopping matches that are landslides within minutes, and creating a points system that doesn't reward poachers.
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Re: Reinventing the Wheel (Mods, Please Read)
Reply #2 - 07/07/15 at 09:43:28
 
MoshTMA wrote on 07/07/15 at 03:10:05:
had too many exploits that ruined the chance of fair play.
Self sticking RPG. An area of effect 120 damage and on a vehicle with four shields. It's really cheap on cars slower than Reaper.

MoshTMA wrote on 07/07/15 at 03:10:05:
-No Sniper weapons. It doesn't belong in car combat.
Yeah get rid of it. Some people like to pick Diablo Pass and abuse it. It's undodgable.

MoshTMA wrote on 07/07/15 at 03:10:05:
-Car switching in a match was not a great idea. Players get too obsessed with what players they dislike choose, and it becomes an annoying back and forth competition to outdo the other player by picking vehicles that could have an advantage over the other. Either the feature needs to be done with or limited so you can only change your vehicle one time.
Wow I really agree with this. People tend to switch to a bigger car or Talon when their getting killed a lot. Especially in a small map where someone will switch to a 250+ HP car, because it's a small map and not much health is there. I bet if the game did prevented people from switching during a match, we might see even more big cars at the start of the match. I only use Roadkill so I don't have a problem with this. People should be good with the car they pick, instead of switching to the vehicle with broken tactics when things are not going their way.

MoshTMA wrote on 07/07/15 at 03:10:05:
-Team Modes need to be done right. The next TM needs to be smarter in team matchmaking, and make an effort to keep games from being ruined, like booting idle players, stopping matches that are landslides within minutes, and creating a points system that doesn't reward poachers.
Yeah it's a waste of ten minutes playing an unwinnable match or when you team is far ahead and the booting idle players is a good idea.

Another idea that would had made the game better is remove the online unlock system and just make every car and killstreak available from the start. It's unfair to the new players that they don't have killstreaks level 5 unlocked. 
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« Last Edit: 07/07/15 at 21:17:16 by Luis »  
 
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Re: Reinventing the Wheel (Mods, Please Read)
Reply #3 - 07/07/15 at 13:40:58
 
Great reply by MAWSH, good to see you again pal.

I would love another TM, but honestly I think I would rather have a legit HD port of TMB and TMB:Online on the PS4 before I would think they would remake an entire new Twisted Metal.  TM is a difficult game to sequel, for the same reasons we all love.  There's so much new "CONTENT" that is expected. Content is harder and harder to get into the games on the next gen systems due to the tech and expectations always rising.

A new twisted metal has to have the old cars in true HD glory, better than they have been before (although the Sweet Tooth in Rocket League is FREAKING SICK -- pic below).  It also has to include a handful of new cars, with new looks and specials.  It also must have at least 8 different maps, of varying sizes. It also needs to include at LEAST a beginning and end story for each character. And finally it needs to have at LEAST two bosses.  That doesn't include all of the testing and insane amount of scripting/collisions that have to be done over and over and over and over again. As a software tester, believe me when I say that Twisted Metal is a lot of moving software parts, and I think it's forgivable to screw it up.

That being said, I don't think Jaffe is certainly qualified for another Twisted Metal title. He certainly has had a few misses the last few years, including TMPS3. Drawn to Death looks interesting, but until I play it, I will have to believe that the gameplay will be similarly shallow, but I will of course reserve that judgement until the game is out. It is of course my opinion, but the real stars at Incog and SingleTrac that worked on STELLAR gameplay were working on Warhawk PS3 and Starhawk PS3 before Stawhawk flopped. The Eat Sleep Play and Starhawk crew (8 that remain) are simply working on iOS games now instead of AAA titles.  The gameplay / balance talent that Sony had in SingleTrac/Incognito all went to other companies.

So in that light, I'd rather a new Sony studio take Twisted Metal and put their own touches on it.  Maybe the MotorStorm / DriveClub team, maybe the KillZone / Horizon team after Horizon's release (not likely), but I don't know who would be willing.  Twisted Metal is a tough nut to crack.  The really good developers like to OWN their own franchises, not lease them.  Naughty Dog and the like wouldn't touch it.

EDIT: Almost forgot the wallpaper pic.
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Re: Reinventing the Wheel (Mods, Please Read)
Reply #4 - 07/07/15 at 17:08:14
 
Mawsh for the win Smiley. All excellent points, we should be compiling this list for a document to send to SCEA or Sony's main in Japan. I'd be willing to pay to have a translator type out a solid message to their HQ.

I definitely agree on story mode and the drivers switching cars. It's ridiculous that they gave up the idea of everyone's unique twist simply because "hey live action costs money." Part of the issue we have in not getting a proper sequel comes from Sony's disdain for the American title. They're not racist, they just don't understand American audiences. That's to be expected when there are two distinct cultures separated by a large body of water.

An HD port of TMB (with Online actually built in), as well as Twisted Metal 2 or Head On would make me a happy guy. Keep the features the same, but give the whole thing a face lift. Bring on Greg Capullo to do the renderings of the characters for their cutscenes & endings.
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Re: Reinventing the Wheel (Mods, Please Read)
Reply #5 - 07/08/15 at 00:07:22
 
Ok, I guess it's time for my two cents. I think the problem with games today is the lack of gameplay as a whole. It's a lot of cinematic cut scenes and timed button sequences, and not a whole lot of actually doing anything.
We see a few rare exceptions to this, and even a slow reversal of this as development pipelines become more efficient and more resources go into gameplay mechanics rather than story and visuals.
Older titles in general are still pretty fun because of the focus on gameplay, and also their LACK of content. With the hardware limitations at the time, a game had to be simple, and yet get the point across.
Twisted Metal is and always will be my go to example, because it was such a fun and simple concept. You had a dozen unique vehicles with a driver; you fight through a tournament and get an ending.
Gameplay was key in having a game that people wanted to come back to, and Twisted Metal's concept works. An arena type death-match that progresses in a tournament is very good for way to keep people coming back.
You'd think playing the same levels over and over again would get boring, but TM kept it fresh by having a cool and unique vehicle roster. Each vehicle was a new gameplay experience, and with that, gamers felt a new challenge with each character.
The vehicles had their own driver as well, something that made each character a little more interesting when driving around. TM1 and TM2 also left a lot of the character to the player’s imagination as well, because we only got a few sentences and some ending dialogue to understand who that person is. Darkside from TM1 had the coolest driver, because you never really knew who or what he was, if we ignore the goofy live action endings.
That is where I think the new TM fell short, and what can't be absent from a new title.
Every vehicle needs a character behind the wheel, and they all need their own special and play style.
The levels are also a good chunk of TM's charm. They always had fun levels, and note that it doesn't always have to follow the "World Tour" style. The levels can be limited to a single location, i.e. LA or Harbor City. TMPS3 suffered from the levels being a little too big, and their layout feeling a little bland because of it. The older TM's didn't have huge open areas, but rather streets, paths, ramps, and small areas for combat. There was not any moments of isolation in TMPS3, because everything was very destructible and open, in contrast I'll always remember TM1 Cyburbia having tense moments of confusion as you got lost in the rows of never ending houses looking for your opponent.
Twisted Metal as a whole is a funny thing, Jaffe wanted to be fresh with the new title, but if you think about it, he didn't have to. The last title was on PSP, which I'm sure not everyone played, so in reality the last full release for Twisted Metal was back in 2001. The game doesn't NEED to be fresh, because it's not even released enough to get repetitive! A franchise like Call of Duty gets repetitive. Car combat isn't even a big enough genre to get repetitive either.

So what am I getting at with my ramblings? A god damn cut and paste of TM1 and 2. Update it graphically/reboot it, but keep it stuck in the 90's. It can feel dated in it's styling, music, and characters, that is a part of it's charm for me personally. I just want good detailed models, high quality textures, and fun vividly colored maps. The gameplay can be exactly how it's always been, except for a nice multiplayer portion and, for the love of god, online co-op.
I don't need it to be a 60$ title, but if they want to add some extras to bump it up to a full title I'll except that.
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Re: Reinventing the Wheel (Mods, Please Read)
Reply #6 - 07/08/15 at 11:56:34
 
No. I had nothing to do with any of it.

I was home getting drunk and masturbating.

I'm sticking to it.
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Re: Reinventing the Wheel (Mods, Please Read)
Reply #7 - 07/09/15 at 21:12:54
 
I can contribute a lot of points myself, but for now I'm just going to respond to and emphasize/contest a few things mentioned thus far.

Ghastly wrote on 07/05/15 at 19:27:49:
*Ability to Break Suspension - I'd like to see people rushing and having to serpentine to get to a health station before they are utterly destroyed by an incoming fire missile.

Not a fan of that idea. It'd be more realistic if your vehicle was crippled when taking damage, but from a gameplay perspective it's make things less excited cause it'd be much harder to make a comeback. I could also see it empowering pussy tactics, since players would try to keep their vehicle in optimum condition and avoid putting themselves in situations where they could be damaged.

MoshTMA wrote on 07/07/15 at 03:10:05:
Your ideas are not bad though I'm against full healths in competitive play.

I'm not a fan any pickup or element that restores full health, I agree. I do think that health can have a meaningful purpose and can add depth in a TM game though. In a game like Black especially, I totally get why health is bullcrap, and only strips depth since it encourages shallow pussy tactics to rebound from your mistakes. In team-based TM 2012 though, it does add elements of map control, pacing and pressuring the opposing team's weakened players before the health cycles come around, and becomes a real turf war. How it would function in a game with a dedicated team mode, but higher ability to dodge has yet to be determined, but I believe health can work in team games. In FFA, disable health. Health serves no purpose in those modes, especially in LMS and 1v1s. There should be nothing resembling health stations, health taxis and health semis either, as they restore too much with minimal coordination required.

MoshTMA wrote on 07/07/15 at 03:10:05:
-Car switching in a match was not a great idea. Players get too obsessed with what players they dislike choose, and it becomes an annoying back and forth competition to outdo the other player by picking vehicles that could have an advantage over the other. Either the feature needs to be done with or limited so you can only change your vehicle one time.

I'm going to disagree with that, mainly because it's not like TM is a rock paper scissors match where one vehicle indisputably trumps another. If the next game is properly balanced, any vehicle matchup should be competitive, but we've never really had a TM with that level of balance. My major issue with locking people in their vehicles is that it would discourage players from mastering a range of vehicles. The best teams are ones that are hard to predict, can run any vehicle lineup and can alter their tactics mid-game. If the game is balanced properly and there isn't any cheap elements to a specific vehicle, there shouldn't be any need to switch out of spite.

MoshTMA wrote on 07/07/15 at 03:10:05:
-Arenas need to stop getting larger in Twisted Metal. Unless the next game is massive and holds up to 20+ players, there is no reason for extra large maps. Medium sized arenas with enough open space and cool destructible stuff that do not get in the way of combat are better.

Much agreed. We don't need larger maps, or a larger player capacity even. It might be fun to have an insane amount of players for DM or another casual mode, but in TDM, 6v6 is really as large as a team can be while still being able to coordinate over mics and whatnot. All of the XL maps in TM 2012, except LA Skyline XL, are too big for even the unranked max of 8v8. Most of the medium maps in TM 2012 are decent (except Dead Man's Crossing which we never play competitively). It'd also be awesome to have more variants offered, since having only one variant on LA Skyline (Vertigo) really sucks since it's one of the better maps in the game.

MoshTMA wrote on 07/07/15 at 03:10:05:
-The next game needs more characters, real stories, but no "Story Mode". Just a classic Arcade tournament with a intro/middle/end cutscene would suffice, but what should be done different is maybe have the stories connect better.

I would greatly prefer to see the teturn of original system of drivers being inseparable from their vehicles. However. I don't care to see high production values invested in the story. I still want the writing to be decent, but minimalist comic stories would do just fine, as I would rather see more resources be out into developing the gameplay. What I care about most is that they nail the overall atmosphere of Twisted Metal. I can forgive the lack of substance in TM 2012's single player in that it felt like a TM experience... for the short time it lasted.

Luis wrote on 07/07/15 at 09:43:28:
Another idea that would had made the game better is remove the online unlock system and just make every car and killstreak available from the start. It's unfair to the new players that they don't have killstreaks level 5 unlocked.

The multiplayer unlock system should purely be ascetic modifications. Although I kinda understand the logic of restricting vehicles like Reaper or Darkside that are really unforgiving for someone who just began playing, locking killstreak perks, energy abilities and so on is just terrible logic, and aside from just TM, I don't get why so many online games opt to put new players at a disadvantage from the start.

I'll add more if other elements aren't brought up in the next few posts.
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