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Stalker Missile (Read 12906 times)
Luis
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #15 - 07/31/14 at 17:34:55
 
Muddeh wrote on 07/31/14 at 14:29:56:
it's just a big cry out to anyone who witnesses that you've used all your energy prematurely, and are easy to target.
I have been paying attention to this. I love it when my opponents used a freeze on me and failed to hit me while I was frozen because I broke out of it so fast. After they use a freeze they no longer have shields, so they are ready to take all the damage about to give them.

Unfortunately there's still so many people that doesn't know how to break out of a freeze fast, probably because they are not good at button mashing, so they all get killed by freeze+flawesaw from Reaper. They also don't know about jumping when a freeze hits you. It was said that Talon takes a while to break out of it freeze, meaning it will always land on the ground when you freeze it. But if you're a really good button masher, you can break it before you touch the ground. I used Talon yesterday and it took two freeze to get me on the ground in Diablo Pass.
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #16 - 07/31/14 at 20:45:01
 
I will address some points.

"First, you state that the difficulty present in dodging weapons with homing capabilities makes the game a war of attrition. I hardly see how you can give TM 2012 this label without applying it to the entire series. In every TM you're using vehicles with a specific number of hit points using weapons which deal a specific amount of damage, but most importantly, each vehicle possesses varying capabilities to deal and negate damage."


Trust me they dont play anything like TMX. Nothing at all. When I say attrition, I mean most of the shit wont be avoided in TMX. Or to a degree that is diminished from older games (i will drill that point home because thats the kicker). Older TM games there is more finesse and nuance, driving matters far more to determine an outcome then straight up who has more guns. NOT ABSENT IN TMX. Just greatly diminished.

"Consider it this way. If you're playing Darkside in Black, is it worth the effort to go to the effort of dodging a homing missile that takes away less than 4% of your health? While your enemy is spamming you slowly over a long period of time, you should take the opportunity to set up an attack of your own that is more powerful, deals more damage with a shorter amount of time required, has knock-back attributes that allow you to set up combos, etc.. The same logic applies to TM 2012, as players in current day can consistently nail strong, single-hit damage like power missiles, turbo rams, napalm bullseyes, even ricos, as well as multitudes of vehicle specials."


I think you are making the incorrect assumption many people... unfamiliar with dodging make. Its not just a defensive technique. Yes, it is worth it to dodge, if you can, whenever you can. You save AA (where you might have shielded) that can be used against stuff that matters. And dodging in the "pocket" (close range) is great for small cars to stay offensive RIGHT WHERE ACTION IS. Rather then run away like a pussy and rear fire everything or corner hop from cover to cover. Dodging takes a mere second and you can fire your own shots or prep your own combos WHILE doing so. It isnt an all or nothing maneuver/playstyle.

What you are advocating is something very TMX in style. Why bother dodging (which really cant do), when its a 4% damage weapon, when you can spam your own offense. Dodging is BOTH offense and defense.

No one is arguing you dont have any combos or knockback. We are saying the actual dependency and relevancy on these things is diminished GREATLY from previous games. Like big time. When most weapons fire 3 times faster than ever... and are more accurate than ever.... yeah its a no brainer, you dont NEED to setup shots as much as before. You just don't.

You didnt answer me when I said what if Reaper has no cover and 2 people have him in the open spamming homings/other undodgeable turret special crap. Because you know the answer is he would die and has no options. Instead you copped out and said a good Reaper would never get stuck in that scenario.

"The parallel you draw to fighting games isn't relevant because character's attributes don't vary to the extent that the attributes of vehicles in TM do."


Bad example then. My point was it is dumb and boring. Imagine a game of basketball where the ball never misses. There, thats what I meant  Smiley

"Tell me how landing power missiles is so much easier in TM 2012 than it is in any other title. If powerful attacks are supposedly so easy to land, why are weak homing weapons such an issue? Whatever you're attempting to argue, it doesn't add up. If homing attacks are so easy to dodge in Black, why does anyone ever bother firing them? Obviously, setting up strong attacks is never a sure thing, but all TM games hold a balance of risk vs. reward. You can choose to spam in any title if you wish, but you run the risk of getting outplayed with a more powerful attack."


Another GIANT misconception that we heard a lot.

"why would we want dodging weapons! it means the game would be too easy, and no one would die. Why bother firing anything if everything will miss!"

Exact opposite is the truth, it makes the game harder. Not to mention dodging has always been part of TM balance. Small cars better to dodge with, big cars harder but more armor to soak up the damage.

Its not "easy" per say, but it is "easy" when your opponent simply spams off the weapons and has no regard for timing as to WHEN they should fire a weapon. Homings despite being dodgeable, are one of the best pickups in the game. Yep, fact.

This is why so many had issue with the new game. There is less regard for the timing on firing weapons. They fire 3x faster... and home much better than ever before. Hence the "spam".

You can be at some retarded angles, and shit will land. This is where we have issues, you can fire most things at MORE instances, and it will land. We dont care one bit what is balanced, because believe me I 100% believe you when you say homings are balanced. No one has issue with that. In other TM games, being MORE conscious of where your opponent is and where you are before firing a weapon was the name of the game smart play. Hence, why we call this game "spam", its far more forgiving on where you fire from and where your opponent is... because it fires faster, and homes way better (yeah im broken record lol)

EXAMPLE: You and an enemy car are facing one another across a battlefield, not straight across from one another, but off to the side of one another. You both head forwards, keeping side distance. Firing weapons along the way. As you get super close and you both are off to 75-90 degree angles from one another, missile will start to miss because the angles are getting broken. This situation in TMBO/TM2PC is interesting, in that depending on the angles and the weapons, stuff will miss quite a bit, and as you approach the 75 degree mark... it just won't because its not probably angle. In TMX, shit will land throughout the entire phase, and even at the 75 degree mark, weapons might curve right around and follow to a far greater extent than TMBO/TM2PC. @ 80+, TMX freeze will turn around and follow.

Meaning? You can be less consciously aware of your placement and where your enemy is when it comes to firing weapons in TMX. There is A HUGE MARGIN OF ERROR, and more weapons will land, irrelevant of where enemy is in relation. MORE. Some weapons sure don't curve around or make angles in TMX, but with speed and accuracy boost its a noticeable change for the worst. This is the "spam" argument expanded. Spam = you can just fire and forget, more than before.

"I've already stated that there are multiple weapons and specials that exist for their knock-back and stun capabilities. So, once again, rather than hanging your full argument on hyperbolically stating that you can't dodge anything in TM 2012, explain to me why Death Warrant is so generic, and Outlaw II and Spectre in the respective games I mentioned them in are such great, unique cars from a gameplay standpoint."


O2 for TM2 has one of the lowest damage specials in the game, that tazer... might look retarded and seem generic but its fucking overpowered and amazing. That car was called the combo queen because it was used to cause massive knockup to set up combos... Spectre missile very average at best. DW has a special relatively the same as a number of cars in TMX. And in comparison to old games, setting up attacks is less than needed as before. When stuff lands easier now, it means you need less weapons that do knockback, or need for them. You had greater need back then.

But when people say originality they say Slam, Twister, Grasshopper, Hammerhead, Manslaughter, Yellowjacket... Very unqiue cars and specials. Most cars in TMX have undodgeable or near undodgeable tri-gun specials, flamethrowers, or aoe splash damage... not very engaging and not all that creative. Pretty bottom of the barrel. We go from tornados and jumping cars to all auto aim specials. TMX is basically every car is TMB Minion. Mr Slam you had to PHYSICALLY aim and land, timing was hard because there is self-knockback. Roadboat now is kinda fun and similar but hes the auto aim vacuum version of Slam.

"As well, how do you expect to ever hit fast, lightweight vehicles if power missiles moved slowly and can be easily dodged? How do you expect to hit them with anything if homing weapons have no effect on them, and their speed and agility should allow to prevent being hit by kick-back and stun weapons? Ought as well just fire missiles into empty space and hope they drive into them by random luck, in that case."


I think you have a mindset that is indicative of not playing the other games to see how they worked. Not meaning that offensively or anything but this paragraph above sums it up.

Fact: Dodging is big in TM2PC and TMBO. Freezes and other shit is not easy to land on people and require more use of knockback weapons, and aiming... and small cars can dodge the best of all cars in both games.

Result: And yet... small cars in both games are typically underpowered STILL. You think that by granting them dodging power they will be OP. Sure in TMX adding more dodgeability would change things drastically and the game would need an entire arsenal overhaul, but the fact remains is dodging did NOT make small cars OP in old TM games. Did NOT.

The new game they basically balanced around the fact that not much misses and it is MORE of a war of attrition.

It meant timing, aiming, combos, all mattered quite a bit more than TMX.

Dodging/missile speed+accuracy, and specials that are so boring are just a small part of it too. There is so much more absent in TMX that people liked too. You like audio depth of swamers clearly. So you would love TMB because thats a huge part of TMB, and not just one weapon but nearly all
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #17 - 07/31/14 at 21:32:14
 
Continued since I bottomed out the character limit Smiley

Balance. Big issue in most games, but again we don't care about that in TMX. Yeah the game is balanced around most stuff being undodgeable and that area. We just think thats just really boring and the series has already shown it can design better.

So you removed small cars many options like offensive dodging and "balanced it out" by giving them more shields to deflect more damage? Thats dumb. It also means they are relegated to playing pussies more often. Duuuumb.

In many people's eyes this one change and many more is just a giant leap backwards for the genre and a fundamental change of the game design at the most basic level. TMB and TM2 cannot possibly play any more different, they are night and day... and yet they share a ton of basic game design elements that the series is known for.

Sure, fun can be had with TMX, but its straight up bland casual game design. DS has a tri-gun for god's sake. Thats evidence of how far we have come. What does DS need that for? Well in TMX it makes perfect sense because it fits in with all the others.

It is nice that you love TMX and you want to think of it as being up there with TM of old. But it is the kiddie shallow pool that is right beside the olympic sized pool in the rec centre.
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #18 - 08/01/14 at 02:00:22
 
RoaDiE wrote on 07/31/14 at 20:45:01:
And dodging in the "pocket" (close range) is great for small cars to stay offensive RIGHT WHERE ACTION IS. Rather then run away like a pussy and rear fire everything or corner hop from cover to cover. Dodging takes a mere second and you can fire your own shots or prep your own combos WHILE doing so. It isnt an all or nothing maneuver/playstyle.
You're not gonna believe this match that I had before. I think it was a 3 vs 3 match and we played on big stages. I use Roadkill which is a small car and the other person on my team was Kamikaze I think. The two in the other team was using heavy cars like Shadow and Vermin. My team won twice and the two people that were using the big cars were complaining that we were running away too much which was kinda surprising. Shdaow is one of the best cars in the game so I see highly skilled players using it because of it's big armor and an alternative special that can deal big damage and it doesn't have to be a direct hit to land that 60 damage. If I'm fighting a good Shadow player at close range face to face with a small car, why in the world should I stay there and continue fighting when I get low health? Shadow can be too dangerous for small cars to fight up close because of that special. The best thing to do was to run for the health then comeback and kill Shadow when I'm fully healed. My team won that match thanks to this tactic and the players that were using the big cars got angry. It was the right thing to do and you can't always afford to die because there can be noobs on your team that are easy kills.
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #19 - 08/01/14 at 08:16:10
 
Luis wrote on 08/01/14 at 02:00:22:
You're not gonna believe this match that I had before. I think it was a 3 vs 3 match and we played on big stages. I use Roadkill which is a small car and the other person on my team was Kamikaze I think. The two in the other team was using heavy cars like Shadow and Vermin. My team won twice and the two people that were using the big cars were complaining that we were running away too much which was kinda surprising. Shdaow is one of the best cars in the game so I see highly skilled players using it because of it's big armor and an alternative special that can deal big damage and it doesn't have to be a direct hit to land that 60 damage. If I'm fighting a good Shadow player at close range face to face with a small car, why in the world should I stay there and continue fighting when I get low health? Shadow can be too dangerous for small cars to fight up close because of that special. The best thing to do was to run for the health then comeback and kill Shadow when I'm fully healed. My team won that match thanks to this tactic and the players that were using the big cars got angry. It was the right thing to do and you can't always afford to die because there can be noobs on your team that are easy kills.


Unsure if I fully get the meaning but what you did was the right thing to do. Im just saying TMX doesn't really give you the option to stay in the pocket, like other games, because there is a lack of dodging mechanics. Hence the "play like a running pussy bit"... which I think the game kinda makes ya do; so yeah TMX kind of forces it on ya. Muddy even said a good Reaper never finds himself cornered or up against 2 to 1 odds. I believe it. Indeed why would you ever want to get close , it wouldn't be wise for winning.
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #20 - 08/01/14 at 11:13:50
 
I was saying since dodging while attacking can be hard in this game, sometimes fighting Shadow up close is not a good idea and Vermin has that fast undodgable special, which is good for killing small cars. So the best thing to do was to run for health because I know I'm gonna get hit anyway. It doesn't always work because they can stick you with a remote bomb. They blamed on the stage being too big and wanted a smaller one. I think that's just an excuse because if I run away and you know you can't catch me because you failed to kill me quick, you can turn around and go for health too and recharge your AA while I'm gone. Big cars have the upperhand in smaller stages.

RoaDiE wrote on 07/31/14 at 21:32:14:
What does DS need that for?
Helicopters are a thing. Also to be able to hit from a far.
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #21 - 08/02/14 at 07:52:58
 
Play nice boys. Heh. I know and see ya are, just poking my dick in here to squirt a little fear at ya.

And BTW...and this has happened to me a few times....nothing was more aggravating than going after a REALLY experienced Grim player in TMBO on red heath, and he dodges all your shit mostly. :::::cough::::: VENOM::::::cough::::::

And still be in your face with Gas Cans. That really will blow your mind.   
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #22 - 08/04/14 at 13:23:04
 
Muddeh wrote on 07/31/14 at 14:29:56:
I can't find any substance in your argument besides inaccurate generalizations and metaphors. By your logic, paintball must be a braindead sport because you can't dodge your opponents shots, but dodgeball, man, that's one thrilling sport since you can react since you can react to your opponents' projectiles! Talk about depth! If realism is so important (which is laughable to bring up in the context of a clown with a flaming head), how is it realistic to be capable to constantly be engaged in battle, and dodge essentially every bullet shot your way? You're actually demeaning Black by making it sound like a contest where whoever fails to dodge weapons loses, which obviously isn't the case. There's a lot to be said about intuition, setting up your attacks to make them more difficult to react to and avoid, and controlling your opponent's movements so you can set up stronger attacks with greater ease. Same goes for TM 2012.

Please tell me you're joking about freeze (EMP) combos being a sure thing. Usually the risk of putting virtually all of your energy towards a freeze missile exceeds the potential reward, and most experienced players rarely use them. Freeze missiles travel very slow and it's easy to minimize your time spent stationary by jumping, turbo dashing, etc.. Freezes can be absorbed resulting in you taking a stalker hit while your enemy doesn't even use any energy. The rare instances where freezes are effective are where you're in extremely close range where you opponent has no opportunity to react, but if you're in such close range, you're better off freehanding the power missile (or mashing napalms, which is a far more effective combo against a frozen enemy). Otherwise, it's just a big cry out to anyone who witnesses that you've used all your energy prematurely, and are easy to target. As well, how do you expect to ever hit fast, lightweight vehicles if power missiles moved slowly and can be easily dodged? How do you expect to hit them with anything if homing weapons have no effect on them, and their speed and agility should allow to prevent being hit by kick-back and stun weapons? Ought as well just fire missiles into empty space and hope they drive into them by random luck, in that case.

I've already stated that there are multiple weapons and specials that exist for their knock-back and stun capabilities. So, once again, rather than hanging your full argument on hyperbolically stating that you can't dodge anything in TM 2012, explain to me why Death Warrant is so generic, and Outlaw II and Spectre in the respective games I mentioned them in are such great, unique cars from a gameplay standpoint.


What you don't understand is you seem to think that you actually have an argument. When in fact you are getting corrected and being told the facts of TM2PC/TMBO compared to TMX. I really don't know where you were trying to go with paintball/dodgeball. I also don't know how you interpreted that realism needs to be in games. I said dodging adds depth to video games and real life games. This has nothing to do with "my logic", its common sense. Of course dodging does not play a huge role in paintball, we aren't in the fucking matrix yet. Aiming plays a big role in paintball/dodgeball. Now give them both the "TMX Treatment" of speed of light fire rate/super homing and their depth is greatly diminished and are not as good as they once were.

Freezing is a sure thing in TMX compared to TM2PC/TMBO. Most expereinced players don't use it because there is no need to. In TM2PC/TMBO you needed to freeze if you really wanted to fuck someone up. In TMX it doesn't matter, you can just fuck them up with whatever you can spam out your inventory. Freezes may be easily shielded but what happens when you have no aa to shield? Smaller cars can get out quick but what about the bigger cars? Oh yea, you bend over and take it.

You can state there is multiple weapons and specials that exist for their knockback/stuns all you want. Knockback/stuns in TMX aren't needed and play no big role like they did in TM2PC/TMBO. Death Warrent is generic because he has no unique look/vehicle type, no unique special, and no unique handling(since dodging plays no role). They added this NEW car with nothing unique instead of using one of the great ones from past TMs.  No one else had the exact same special as outlaw II and Spectre. Their handling/speed determined their dodging ability. They offer a different playing experience due to these things. I really don't know why you have a such hard time understanding this. All you come up with for Death Warrant is you love his handling/weapon fire position for firing straight shots. That stuff is all preference and varies player to player, it has no big impact on making a car an unique playing experience.

You have a hard time understanding simple concepts even after they are explained to you. Its as if you just stick your fingers in your ears and say "Well you can dodge some things once in great while and its like this in all TM games!". Then you stick your fingers in your ears and say "Cars might not be unique in TMX, but its the same in all TMs!". TMX is not like TM2PC/TMBO and you just can't understand it or don't want to. I'm about to break down and call Big Bird to organize a Sesame Street Intervention. Once we get The Count up in this bitch, I think you'll finally start to get it. Oh I can just see it now.  1...2...3...4....5...6...7...8... 8 cars using same specials! Ha! Ha! Ha!. 1...2...3...4....5...6...7...8...9...10... 10 out of 10 attacks not dodged last life! Ha! Ha! Ha!.
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #23 - 08/04/14 at 14:49:08
 
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #24 - 08/04/14 at 22:07:45
 
RoaDiE wrote on 07/31/14 at 20:45:01:
You like audio depth of swamers clearly. So you would love TMB because thats a huge part of TMB, and not just one weapon but nearly all
The game could really use this. You can get hit by Reaper's flamesaw because you can't hear it coming until it's too late. I want to be able to hear it when Reaper is about to throw it. It does 150 damage which is a one hit kill on small cars and this is the first time in the series where Mr. Grimm's special can kill a lightweight car in one shot, except Roadkill who will be left with low health from full. And speaking of dodging, Meat Wagon's special in online seriously needs to be dodgeable like offline. It's an automatic 40 damage unless you take cover and even with the shield on, it will stun you. No doubt this is the best car for beginners.

Muddeh was TM PS3 the first Twisted Metal you played? I just want to know if your arguments comes from the fact that TM 2012 was the only one you played.
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #25 - 08/06/14 at 14:15:57
 
Pardon me. I might be off on my definition but, isn't a war of attrition when you wear your opponent down over time? I have the exact opposite problem in TMX because I get obliverated within 5 sec of falling into a brawl or even getting near one.

I had my fun with TMX in the first 2 months. Using JYD and plowing through people. I used all the vehicles but only because I had to for ranking up, or trying for trophies. I don't care to use every vehicle in TM games and it's a loss to me I know I'm missing out but that's how I've always played TM. I have my vehicle of choice which is usually a small muscle or sports car. Before I turn this into a big vehicle vs small I'll say that the accuracy of the homing weapons contributes greatly to the disadvantage of small vehicles. And yeah stalker missiles are absolutely devastating to small cars. Not to mention their abundance. In fact all weapons are way too abundant. They could've at least made some of the more powerful weapons more scarce and harder to get to. I would cut 3/4 of all pick ups out except say the turbo.

The big vehicles don't have to go very far. The only disadvantage they seem to have is their movement. I had my time in the sun with Darkside and it was great. It was right before you started seeing them everywhere. I so wish I captured those first 2 months. Darkside was difficult to manuever but has the most armour. It's nothing to take a few fire or even stalker missiles. Big rigs need not worry about their speed. If a small car decides to tuck tail and run you can just spam the shit out of them. No need for a chase. Something very fundamental to Twisted Metal. Being that, well, we're using cars at high speeds..

I've always maintained that people that use small vehicles are far more superior in skill. One thing I enjoyed about the new TM was when I would show up someone using a big rig with my little pathetic Death Warrant. I could tell that made them feel like a newb, but then they would just use patty wagon and save all their specials. Get me alone and spam me to death. Even with my 2 shields I would be bouncy bouncy in the air helpless.

That's another thing. With respects to all who still play, It is my opinion that TMX is a TM that caters to noobs. When noobs can own veterans just because of a preference in vehicle, that is not right.

Now for a 180. This is not to say I am disregarding TMX. Not at all. Although I don't play anymore I still know for a solid fact I will return to playing it someday. Can only hope the servers will still be up. When I'm looking for a real challenge, like impossible odds which I sometimes do, I would love to play some TMX. And I did have much excitement when it first came out despite the connection troubles.

I always felt the TMB crowd should have played it more. I know you guys did beta testing and even went to exhibtions, but it seemed like you guys jumped ship too early. I mean TMX is a legit TM. Not made by 989.

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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #26 - 08/06/14 at 15:57:14
 
Skywalker wrote on 08/06/14 at 14:15:57:
Pardon me. I might be off on my definition but, isn't a war of attrition when you wear your opponent down over time? I have the exact opposite problem in TMX because I get obliverated within 5 sec of falling into a brawl or even getting near one.

I always felt the TMB crowd should have played it more. I know you guys did beta testing and even went to exhibtions, but it seemed like you guys jumped ship too early. I mean TMX is a legit TM. Not made by 989.



Attrition means nothing really matters beside just hitting the other person. It applies. Doesnt mean over long period of TIME. Just straight up hit for hit. Yep, applies.

Ehhhh... no. "TMB crowd" is kind of disingenuous too. It was both crowds. TM2PC crowd is small but they didn't last either.

You guys have to realize that when you play the games online for a decade. A decade. You learn a lot. And you know what you are looking at DAY ONE. Hell day one I said homings were not dodgeable in any sense and many other weapons, 30 seconds of playing the demo. And I was correct (minus that bug that doesnt really work well in real combat). Despite the fact that people called me fucking stupid and crazy, I was correct... because I had the experience under my belt and know how the gameplay works and if you make tweaks here or there. This wasn't some unseen formula of a game, it s a car combat game with tweaks in some areas (all for the worse).

We also knew the health game is kind of bunk. And many now see we weren't crazy... Talon? Juggs? Auto aim mega guns? Yeah we decried these things day one long before anyone had issue because they didn't see it right away.

Some things just arent understandable to those who don't have an experienced eye to look for it. It sounds arrogant, but its true in any aspect of life.
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #27 - 08/06/14 at 16:17:46
 
Skywalker wrote on 08/06/14 at 14:15:57:
I always felt the TMB crowd should have played it more. I know you guys did beta testing and even went to exhibtions, but it seemed like you guys jumped ship too early. I mean TMX is a legit TM. Not made by 989.


Between the inferior gameplay, network errors, and crashes. We decided to quit and meet up in real life to kick each other in the nuts for a more enjoyable time.
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #28 - 08/11/14 at 11:13:19
 
Spam fest seems to be the prevailing description for tmx. It would only make sense to use the vehicle with the most armor, which is exactly what we're seeing. Rooms full of meat wagons, JYD's, and darksides.

It's like they only thought about this when making tmx



but the game feels more like this

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Luis
Chuck Norris' Roundhouse (ARE YOU HAPPY NOW SCoLD!?)
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Re: Stalker Missile
Reply #29 - 08/11/14 at 15:24:31
 
You wanna know what's ridiculous? When I saw someone complaining to a Talon player about how Talon is cheap and tells him to use a car, the Talon player defend himself and say you're a noob and need to get better. I thought this was unbelievable when I read this in the chat. Now we have people who think they are pros because their using a vehicle that can fly and hide anywhere and spam remote bombs. I actually know someone who is terrible with a car so he startled using Talon, just so he can shoot and hide behind buildings since he always gets killed easy on the ground.
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« Last Edit: 08/11/14 at 21:02:52 by Luis »  
 
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