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TMBO Dedicated Server Request (Read 29954 times)
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #15 - 02/05/13 at 05:04:10
 
I'd say Sony will pay for it one day. But they pay for this kind of thing constantly and their attitude is essentially "Go fuck your self. We don't even care if we don't make a profit. This is how we are going to do this.".

There shouldn't even be a need for all of this crap anyways. The PS3 should just be able to play the damn TMBO disk and the server should still be up. It couldn't possibly cost Sony as much as it does for them to do stuff like producing Vitas packaged with that Call of Duty game that bombed harder then Bubsy 3D.

That is a perfect example of how out of touch Sony is. They have a Vita packaged with a legendarily bad Call of Duty game. They couldn't even wait for the game to get reviewed before they packaged it. Even worse they evidently didn't have anyone there with enough gaming experience to say "Hey this call of duty game is very obviously below standards. it would be a huge waste to pack it with Vitas like the Assasins Creed 3 one.". They clearly thought slapping Call of Duty on a lame FPS game is enough. They don't think about developing games only developing brands. Which is obvious from that PS B Stars game.

It's like they think it's a bad thing to make something better then it has to be. That everything they do must have a bare minimum level of effort and money put into it, and they don't realize how cheap and shitty it makes things.

We get the privilege to buy a terrible game with a console with hardly any games on it. But patching Twisted Metal would be way too much for them. Backwards compatibility is also the fevered dream of a madman and we must repurchase all of the games we own.

Is Sony having some kind of financial problem? It's like they fired all their Quality Assurance guys after selling the PS2 servers.

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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #16 - 02/05/13 at 21:01:40
 
You guys are off your rocker.

Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo all have sterling reputations as publishers (unlike Activision, EA, etc.).  

Twisted Metal was granted 2 SIGNIFICANT extensions and took four years to KINDA complete (which is well above the average for a game that size with the same studio size).  No one on ESP has ever said a bad thing about Sony (despite a tradition in the game design world of bashing bad publishers).

There is certainly something crappy at work, but it isn't what you say it is.

Only place Sony has lagged lately is marketing.  It's not surprising considering the financial struggles the company as a whole is facing lately.
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #17 - 02/06/13 at 21:32:38
 
Quote:
Only place Sony has lagged lately is marketing.  It's not surprising considering the financial struggles the company as a whole is facing lately.


lately?

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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #18 - 02/06/13 at 21:54:11
 
It's not just Sony's marketing. Did you forget the big security screw-up that happened about a year ago where PSN was hacked and people's bank accounts linked to PSN had money stolen? Sony literally had to give away free games as an apology because of incompetence. I doubt developers think it's good business when the publisher is doing a piss poor job at securing the finances of people who buy games. Also, the redesign of the Playstation Store recently has caused several bugs, and it doesn't let you view your virtual wallet anymore, so if you have existing funds you wont know until you buy something it seems.
Another thing is the quality of the servers Sony runs. A lot of games could sell better if the servers were run better, but they only seem to care about servers for the really high selling exclusives, which is few nowadays, limited to an elite few (anything w/Kratos, stuff by naughty dog, media molecule). As a result, Sony turns a blind eye on marketing anything deemed a financial risk to them. I'm sure I'll see plenty of commercials for the next God of War game, but it is seemingly unnecessary for them to do so, it's a game that would sell well anyway. But then w/ Playstation All-Stars, they did market and hype that game and it hasn't sold to Sony's expectations, so it doesn't seem like Sony's marketing is even effective when they try. They certainly seem to need a new strategy there.
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Kilrahi
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #19 - 02/06/13 at 22:55:44
 
TyrantII wrote on 02/06/13 at 21:32:38:


One bad marketing attempt isn't indicative of a trend.

Lately they have a trend.  Not bad commercials, just few of them.
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #20 - 02/07/13 at 00:02:29
 
Quote:
You guys are off your rocker.

Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo all have sterling reputations as publishers (unlike Activision, EA, etc.).  

Twisted Metal was granted 2 SIGNIFICANT extensions and took four years to KINDA complete (which is well above the average for a game that size with the same studio size).  No one on ESP has ever said a bad thing about Sony (despite a tradition in the game design world of bashing bad publishers).

There is certainly something crappy at work, but it isn't what you say it is.

Only place Sony has lagged lately is marketing.  It's not surprising considering the financial struggles the company as a whole is facing lately.


Sony's advertising department has always sucked.







Sony isn't having "financial troubles" they just got a pretty bad ass kicking this generation by entering the console race late and not having a significant power advantage over the X-box 360. They weren't able to just spend money to out preform Microsoft like they could against Sega, Atari, and Nintendo. So while they sold a bunch of PS3's the money it cost for them to compete with Microsoft hurt their profits.

Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo hardly have sterling reputations. Sony is probably the worst of the three when it comes to customer service and supporting their games.

Sony and Microsoft both have had class action lawsuits filed against them for excessive hardware failure for X-box 360 and PS2. Sony made no efforts to replace broken PS1's and PS2's outside of charging users $90 plus shipping to replace broken units with refurbished ones.

Sony's first PSP model shipped with dead pixels, had a wifi device which would overheat the system, and the UMD tray is the most fragile dust collecting piece of shit ever conceived. The only thing they voluntarily replaced PSP's for were the ones which had dead pixels straight out of the box.

The Nintendo Wii had a similar issue with the Wifi device overheating the Wii's GPU. They replaced Launch Wii's with refurbished models but you lose all the content on your system. Meaning you lost every game you downloaded off the Wii Channel, and they give you a refurbished unit instead of an actual new one. So i just traded in my broken Wii and bought a new one. I was already fucked but at least the Wii i have now is a different model which doesn't overheat and isn't fucking used.

Sony and Nintendo have both had their servers hacked numerous times. Nintendo was smart enough to hash their users credit information. But Sony did an extremely sloppy job protecting their users information. Not only that but they did nothing to enhance their security after cutting Linux support from the PS3 antagonizing the world hacking community. Microsoft has had it's Live servers hacked as well but the damage has been minimal and they have had hardly any downtime due to such attacks.

It took Sony months to produce an actually secure PSN. Besides the fact they lost customer data. The fact their entire online service was disrupted is pure evidence that Sony either doesn't spend money on their software. Or everyone they hire is incapable of really doing what they are being paid for. I really doubt Sony hires morons and everything bad that has happened is the fault of the people they hire.

Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft were in violation of a patent for rumble technology. Sony was the only company which refused to settle out of court for said violation. Not a huge deal but it's a good example of their attitude and the fact that they screw up and refuse to take responsibility for it unless they are forced to.

Sony's post launch support is notoriously terrible. They spend more money patching the PS3 and Vita to disrupt piracy then they do to patch their own games. Nintendo is pretty shitty too but they openly admit to not being in competition with the PS3 or 360, especially in online gaming. I'm baffled you can ignore that.

All things considered none of us know the real details of TMX's development. But considering Dave and ESP are experienced game developers. I have a very hard time believing they just couldn't make the game work.

It has all the signs of poor management written all over it. The game started as a discount title programmed by a small team. A small team that was built with the intention of making smaller discounted games. Then the game (which is a Sony game) goes to full retail.

All we can do is come to conclusions. But i think not giving ESP the benefit of the doubt is kind of messed up. Especially considering how Sony handles the TM franchise.

I mean TMHO was basically made because Sony had no IP's anyone liked. The PSP was doing awful and it had no good action or online games. So they needed a mascot game with online play and hired Incog to make a rushed version of Twisted Metal on a portable system no one has developed for.

What has ESP really done for you to come to the conclusion that ESP dicked around for 4 years leeching off Sony's generosity and gave them an unfinished game?








Remember in 2005 when Sony said this was in game? Then the Killzone 2 we got had less animations, physics, particle effects, characters on screen, and gained an unstable frame rate?

I'm sure they just meant it was rendered on the PS3 with no power consuming gameplay elements. It's just a cartoon using the PS3's graphical capabilities. But they know when they say shit like that it will be misinterpreted. They intentionally put stuff like this out to mislead people.

I think giving Sony the benefit of the doubt over ESP is ignorance.

I'd give Sony the benefit of the doubt if my TMB disk worked in my PS3. Otherwise i'm just going to assume they are so stingy with money that you can attribute nearly every flaw in their hardware and software to the fact they don't seem to pay the people they hire.

4 years of development. But how much was spent to develop it? How many people were literally working on it? Was it 4 years straight? You know people talk about Duke Nukem Forever as if that game took over a decade to make. But the truth is Gearbox knocked it out in less then a year just using the older builds of it as a design guide. People just say it took over a decade to develop because they hate it and want to paint it in the most negative light possible because they are vindictive nerds.

I don't think that if 4 straight years of development went into Twisted Metal that it was with a full team. I also think the actual game we got was the same game that was in production 4 years ago. It clearly has elements from TMB2 in it.

I don't think they had more then one person designing/modeling the levels with possibly a couple of artists to make textures. Steve was making 3D models for the game and i don't think that was part of his actual job. Doesn't that sound like they might have not had a large full team working on it 4 years straight?

Also i don't buy that Sony sold the game for $60 to recoup any losses. There is no way it cost the same to make Skyrim, MGS4, or GTA4 as it did Twisted Metal. I think they figured they could sell the game for full price because it's not a mainstream game and it's has no direct competition.

If it cost half as much to make Twisted Metal as it did MGS4 i would be stunned.
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #21 - 02/07/13 at 20:31:29
 
I will say this though, Sony actually is +1 million units sold over MS worldwide now (but yes, they lost way too much US market share).  The Playstation division actually is the most profitable in the company, and doing just fine.

Sonys biggest problems is getting soaked in the LCD market; but that's true of almost all TV manufactures.  Opening mega-production factories in China really is coming back to bite them now that the same capital is being used to make quality-like cheap LCD's.

But yes Sonys support is terrible.  Their direction and use of web 2.0 and social media has always lagged, and they can't put together a functional US ad campaign to save their life (or simply refuse to spend on it).  PSN was really their first true stab at internet gaming, so they can get a slight pass, but next gen they really need to step it up.

Hopefully they hire some American UI and internet/web 2.0 consultants.
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #22 - 02/07/13 at 20:57:48
 
TyrantII wrote on 02/07/13 at 20:31:29:
I will say this though, Sony actually is +1 million units sold over MS worldwide now (but yes, they lost way too much US market share).  The Playstation division actually is the most profitable in the company, and doing just fine.

Sonys biggest problems is getting soaked in the LCD market; but that's true of almost all TV manufactures.  Opening mega-production factories in China really is coming back to bite them now that the same capital is being used to make quality-like cheap LCD's.

But yes Sonys support is terrible.  Their direction and use of web 2.0 and social media has always lagged, and they can't put together a functional US ad campaign to save their life (or simply refuse to spend on it).  PSN was really their first true stab at internet gaming, so they can get a slight pass, but next gen they really need to step it up.

Hopefully they hire some American UI and internet/web 2.0 consultants.


Console sales are not a solid indicator of profit. They lose money on each one sold. The real money is in third party and first party games like Halo, Uncharted, and Call of Duty.

Sony Online Entertainment existed before the PS2. Sony published Everquest one of the grand daddies of MMO's which had a monthly subscription and hosted hundreds of thousands of players. It's still running today after 17 expansions. It baffles me a bit that SoE can do everything they did. Including staying online after the PSN attacks. Why wouldn't Sony utilize the same resources for their online service to begin with?

Well then again SoE did completely ruin that Star Wars MMO so they aren't perfect either. But they could secure their servers and keep them online at least. Perhaps it's due to the fact they get subscription fees, and if that is true then it's Sony's fault for trying to offer a free service they couldn't properly secure and maintain.

They acted like people didn't want party chat. PS Home is laughable in terms of being a serious piece of content. Also it took Sony quite awhile to turn a profit on the PS3 after the weak launch and lacking third party support. It's certainly no PS1 or PS2 where they had well timed releases and significant hardware advantages that gave them the greatest leverage for third party releases.

I'm not saying that Microsoft is perfect. Hell Nintendo flat out says they aren't even in the same league as either of them, and they are right. But you can't give them the benefit of the doubt when they've had so many problems and honestly bad decisions.

The list of bad things Sony has done far outweighs anything a developer could do. Except possibly Ion Storm who spent most of their development money on a retarded hyper fancy office.

If ESP was operating out of the top level of a skyscraper in a major city then i'd be more inclined to believe they pissed the budget away. Or if they spent time travelling all over the world for "research".  

Seeing things as they are with Sony. I think blaming ESP without evidence is bullshit and that opinion doesn't even qualify as good guess work. Which i admit my blaming of Sony is definitely guess work. But anyone claiming Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft have sterling reputations is simply wrong.
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #23 - 02/07/13 at 21:27:51
 
Hellbent wrote on 02/07/13 at 20:57:48:
Console sales are not a solid indicator of profit. They lose money on each one sold. The real money is in third party and first party games like Halo, Uncharted, and Call of Duty.Seeing things as they are with Sony . . . I think blaming ESP without evidence is bullshit and that opinion doesn't even qualify as good guess work. Which i admit my blaming of Sony is definitely guess work. But anyone claiming Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft have sterling reputations is simply wrong.


I think he's referring to the fact that according to Sony's financial statements the games division is one of the few that does well.  The Playstation brand makes money.  The next gen will be interesting to see.

I'm also calling it how I see on Sony as a publisher.  Nobody ever seems to trash them.  Their reputation is solid.  ESP never trashed them, and they never pointed the finger at Sony (and lots of game companies do if their publisher sucks, so it's far from unheard of).

I think the evidence against ESP is pretty powerful.  Ignore it if you want, it doesn't matter.
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #24 - 02/07/13 at 21:44:45
 
Quote:
I think he's referring to the fact that according to Sony's financial statements the games division is one of the few that does well.  The Playstation brand makes money.  The next gen will be interesting to see.

I'm also calling it how I see on Sony as a publisher.  Nobody ever seems to trash them.  Their reputation is solid.  ESP never trashed them, and they never pointed the finger at Sony (and lots of game companies do if their publisher sucks, so it's far from unheard of).

I think the evidence against ESP is pretty powerful.  Ignore it if you want, it doesn't matter.



I'm asking for evidence not ignoring it.

So far i see a whole lot of assumptions. Except your assumption is that it's ESP's fault because you've never heard a developer trash Sony. Where i'm talking about things like development cycles, team sizes, game budget, and so on.

Having the people you hired not trashing you isn't evidence of anything. The only company that has done that to anyone in ages was Silicon Knights vs Epic and that got settled in court.

I remember Gabe Newell trashed the PS3 for their poor online infrastructure and the 2x bluray drive. But a few years later apologized when Portal 2 was released. Developers know that all 3 companies are a pain in the ass to work for. But it's also the best money you are probably going to get outside of starting your own successful company.

Thinking about it i can't think of any development studios that honestly talk trash about their publishers. I get a "Oh thank god i can pay my student loans and pay my rent now this is fantastic!"vibe from studios like Bioware and SoE.

It strikes me as unlikely that ESP can't develop a TM game within 4 years of complete funding. As if Twisted Metal had a Metal Gear Solid 4 or Assassins Creed 3 budget.
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #25 - 02/07/13 at 22:13:19
 
Hellbent wrote on 02/07/13 at 21:44:45:
I'm asking for evidence not ignoring it.

So far i see a whole lot of assumptions. Except your assumption is that it's ESP's fault because you've never heard a developer trash Sony. Where i'm talking about things like development cycles, team sizes, game budget, and so on.

Having the people you hired not trashing you isn't evidence of anything. The only company that has done that to anyone in ages was Silicon Knights vs Epic and that got settled in court.

I remember Gabe Newell trashed the PS3 for their poor online infrastructure and the 2x bluray drive. But a few years later apologized when Portal 2 was released. Developers know that all 3 companies are a pain in the ass to work for. But it's also the best money you are probably going to get outside of starting your own successful company.

Thinking about it i can't think of any development studios that honestly talk trash about their publishers. I get a "Oh thank god i can pay my student loans and pay my rent now this is fantastic!"vibe from studios like Bioware and SoE.

It strikes me as unlikely that ESP can't develop a TM game within 4 years of complete funding. As if Twisted Metal had a Metal Gear Solid 4 or Assassins Creed 3 budget.


All we'll ever have are assumptions, but I have more hard data than you do.  

Just look at the last few years of Incog's life for an example.

Warhawk went way over budget and took way too long (6+ years).  The single player was cancelled and Incognito literally fell apart.    

TMB2 was in development for over eighteen months and was cancelled and lost focus towards the end (last minute grand theft auto additions).

TMHO was rushed and buggy.

Heartland was cancelled.


So you see, there were several titles that show that, at least for the last few years of Incog's life, finishing sucessful projects was a bit of a problem.  

ESPs life is equally troubled.  They had a three game contract that became one game.  That game went well over the expected time frame for completion and was so buggy that to this day it stutters and has problems.

Afterwards, they quit consoles and are focusing on IOS games and we've heard . . . nothing.

Dave left the studio.

I mean, the evidence is overwhelming IMO.

Plus, a publisher's reputation is everything.  How can you say that's meaningless?  That's just plain stupid.
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #26 - 02/07/13 at 23:29:14
 
Quote:
All we'll ever have are assumptions, but I have more hard data than you do.  

Just look at the last few years of Incog's life for an example.

Warhawk went way over budget and took way too long (6+ years).  The single player was cancelled and Incognito literally fell apart.    

TMB2 was in development for over eighteen months and was cancelled and lost focus towards the end (last minute grand theft auto additions).

TMHO was rushed and buggy.

Heartland was cancelled.


So you see, there were several titles that show that, at least for the last few years of Incog's life, finishing sucessful projects was a bit of a problem.  

ESPs life is equally troubled.  They had a three game contract that became one game.  That game went well over the expected time frame for completion and was so buggy that to this day it stutters and has problems.

Afterwards, they quit consoles and are focusing on IOS games and we've heard . . . nothing.

Dave left the studio.

I mean, the evidence is overwhelming IMO.

Plus, a publisher's reputation is everything.  How can you say that's meaningless?  That's just plain stupid.


Meaningless? Not my words. But you are wrong about a publishers reputation. It's a business and even a publisher with an awful reputation can buy or hire just about anyone they can afford to.

If you don't believe me read up on Atari's history. Especially around the Jaguar era. Ruined the company. But Atari's name is still good enough to slap on Unreal Tournament, Dragon Ball Z, and numerous other games as the publisher. A publishers reputation only matters if they are broke like Silicon Knights, THQ, Acclaim, or Midway.

Warhawk has a distinct disadvantage being that it was created for the PS3 in it's early stages. Which hardly anyone was able to program well for due to the Cell's architecture. In addition to that Warhawk didn't have the advantage of PSN or any network standard existing. I could just as easily blame Sony for their choice in CPU and pathetic online support during the PS3's launch. Without Warhawk the PS3 would have had nothing in the online category until Killzone 2. Except for a bunch of inferior port jobs and games like Haze and Lair which bombed extremely hard.

I don't believe Incog made the decision to cancel TMB2. I believe it was canceled because Sony needed PSP software. As they wanted to try a little harder to avoid the failure that was the PS3 launch. It's similar to the reasons why Nintendo cancelled Starfox 2 to divert focus to N64 properties despite Starfox 2 being mostly finished.

TMHO was rushed. But who rushed it? I don't know of any second party developers who intentionally rush software unless it's the will of the publisher.

Heartland being canceled could be blamed on multiple factors. Personally i imagine it's because the PSP is awful for FPS games in addition to the fact it was trounced by the DS almost as hard as the PS1 trounced the Saturn. Though honestly i bet it has more to do with the fact Sony already had teams working on Killzone, Resistance, and Uncharted.  Making Heartland redundant from publishing perspective.

I'm by no means saying Incog and ESP have done everything 100% correctly. I have all sorts of problems with TMHO and a few TMBO problems. I'm not saying Sony is completely responsible. But i am saying that blaming ESP entirely based on how you feel the game industry works is far beyond simple speculation and is in the territory of acting like you really know how it all went down.

Here is an example of how Sony has an effect on the games. If Incog were in complete control chat wouldn't be a cheat code in TMBO. The cutscenes would not be edited. TM1 would have had video endings. TMBO would have probably had the team modes completed as well.

I'm very sure Incog didn't shut down the TMBO and TMHO servers either.
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #27 - 02/07/13 at 23:49:10
 
TyrantII wrote on 02/07/13 at 20:31:29:
I will say this though, Sony actually is +1 million units sold over MS worldwide now (but yes, they lost way too much US market share).  The Playstation division actually is the most profitable in the company, and doing just fine.


Off topic but I wouldnt put much stock in that particular company you are referencing said (not Sony) regarding how many PS3s are sold.

They were the infamous creators of this lovely chart

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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #28 - 02/07/13 at 23:55:02
 
It was Incognito developers who pointed the finger at Scot Campbell for TMB2's demise.  I tend to trust them.  They also constantly blamed him for Warhawk by the way.  

Yet you blame Sony.  Go figure.  

The TMBO server crashed at just about the same time Incognito crashed.  My guess is the server was running from their building and when it closed shop so did they.  I don't think it was a Sony decision.

I imagine Sony took over the TMHO sever for a time but decided it had run its course too (and it had - by that time it was mostly porn chats).  

As much as I hate the fact the servers were killed, TMBO ran close to five years, and TMHO went for about three.  In console world that is pretty solid.  

Also, I don't care why Heartland was cancelled.  That's not my point.  My point is to show you a trendline.  They had a whole string of troubled and cancelled projects.  That should make anyone stop and wonder.  
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Re: TMBO Dedicated Server Request
Reply #29 - 02/08/13 at 00:23:50
 
From what i can gather you are saying Scott is the cause of most of the problems with TMHO and alleged problems with Warhawk. If you have evidence for that beyond heresy then that is the truth. I can't and don't want to argue against that because it's evidence and proves something beyond finger pointing and speculation.

As far as Incogs responsibility to keep the servers up. Microsoft kept the servers running for several X-box games created by companies which went out of business before Microsoft cut it's X-box support. The only X-box games to lose server support before the Microsoft dropped support are games with dedicated servers which actually are expensive to maintain and aren't part of the standard X-box Live service.

A game published by the console developer should stay online until the console is no longer supported. The fact Incog split up shouldn't have impacted the existence of the servers. Unless TMBO and TMHO required a beefy dedicated server. The cost of keeping the TMBO tracker up at the very least would be minuscule for even Sega or Nintendo.

Even if Scott as a designer hindered Incognito. I find it hard to believe that Sony didn't as well. The thought of anyone viewing a company like Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft as having a sterling reputation even as game publishers is naive.

When you communicate your position as if like ESP fucked the whole thing up it really takes the focus off the person you feel is actually responsible and makes it sound like you feel the entire ESP and Incog team are incompetent and hurt Sony.

What decisions did Scott make that hurt Warhawk so badly? I was always under the impression that difficulties programming for the PS3 as well as the absence of PSN were a hurdle. Not only for Incog with Warhawk but also for Free Radical who were composed of some of the best ex rare employees known for their programming skills.

To me it seems very predictable that 3 games built specifically to help move Sony hardware wouldn't have a smooth development. But i can also understand how bad management can ruin a game.
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