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Twisted Metal: Harbor City (Read 29667 times)
RoaDiE
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #60 - 07/19/12 at 23:55:12
 
Snagged quote from that old interview.

Quote:
One of the things that we did on Lost is, I went back and ripped out about 30 percent of the variety of pickups. Because I realized that in Black, we simply had too many weapon options for the player to the point that everything ended up getting diluted. Every pickup felt like it had the same value


...

Uhh... too many pickups and it was diluted? Then how come in the new game they added like a dozen and that was REALLY diluted.
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #61 - 07/20/12 at 00:07:58
 
I felt like that quote was peculiar too. I admit that in a "few" areas in Black like the freeway level had about two or three too many skill based weapons, or were simply too close to each other, the prison passage also, but that's IT, nothing more than that.

Beside that, I realize Scott may be a little more of a Twisted Metal enthusiast than Jaffe, respectfully, considering he made two, almost THREE car combat games without Jaffe.
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #62 - 07/20/12 at 00:47:50
 
Quote:
Yeah . . . there's nothing that can be done.  Seriously.  This happens fairly often in the video game world to many, many games.  Occasionally one gets leaked, but . . .

Here are a few things to keep in mind:

1.  ESP could NOT help you at all.  They are not a part of Sony, and were they to leak the code, there's a very high risk they would be sued seven ways from Sunday.

Further, do they even have the game?  I suppose for this question it appears that at one point they did, or at least a large part of it, as evidence by Jaffe's own comments here:

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/2007/09/level-design-mix-and-match.html

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2008/01/interview-david/

Clearly he played around in it.  Do they still have it?  Dunno.



2.  What would a nearly done Twisted Metal game actually mean?

This is an important question, and I think it's the critical one.  While I believe it's absolutely true the game was nearly done, I'm certain it doesn't mean that there was a product that you could actually stick in a PS2 and play.  Consider:

1.  At one point on foot code was begun but not completed.  Where is this part of the game?  Does it interrupt if you play a level?  

2.  Can you play a level?  I'm confidant you could select the big ass city they built, and drive around in it, but . . . it doesn't look like they ever added computer AI and enemy cars so . . . what would you do?  I guess it would be a massive peep show.

3.  Speaking of drive around, in what cars?  So far the only cars ever shown exploring the level are Roadkill and Spectre.


Start to see the problems?  A nearly complete game (80% maybe?) in chunks . . . is still a nearly complete game in chunks.  Were all the cars nearly finished BUT on a seperate drive?  Were there even levels at all and so would it just be one big empty city?

This is awesome crap to explore, for sure, and if they'd wanted to do an even better job than they did on TMHO:ETE they would have had a bonus unlockable section entitled, "The rest of the crap," but it never happened, and now that Twisted Metal appears dead, I don't think it ever will.


One thing I was very bummed about, they promised they'd be far more honest in the documentary than most documentarys on TMHO:ETE, and they were, and in fact, were very upfront about 989.  However, there isn't as much risk there as they weren't a part of that team.  As fun as the fake story about the plane crash was, I was always very disapointed they didn't give the real story and more detail on TMB2, like running video of what they'd made.  Damn.   Cry


IF someone who use to work at Incognito had a copy of all or most of the work done on the game stored on a flash drive and they decided to fuck the consequences and just leak it to someone here it wouldn't really be that fans could complete the game, but rather that we could see how the levels were shaping up and how some of the new car models were being arranged.

The game is lost, but just as a fan it would be really cool to see as much as possible and get a sense of where the game was headed and such. Seeing how the free ways were intended to connect the levels, seeing models and sketches for possible bosses would be a cool experience for the fans.

I wounder how much concept art and story notes were made for this game.

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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #63 - 07/20/12 at 00:52:06
 
Heres another that made me cringe:

Quote:
I look back at Twisted Metal 2, where I was doing some of the design, and there really was more of a sense of here is the upper-class suburbian home area, but the only way to get there is to take this winding, curvy road. Bottleneck areas, open arena areas, areas that flow into each other but only in very constrictive ways. Like if you want to shoot somebody and he runs into, say, the movie theater, there’s only two places he can come out, and there’s a vantage point where you can fire, where you can sit and wait and hit him at either end depending on how he comes out.

More standoffs, more bottlenecks. Building chase scenarios, building places where you can fight over the best pickups.


...

From my experience, the worst levels typically have been the ones hes describing here: Windy roads, bottlenecks, really are not conducive of car combat.

Evidence: Highway Loop aka the worst level in TM history. Second place = Snowy Roads

Freedom of movement is essential to the game play experience, half of good car combat is shooting but movement and angles of approach is the other half. If you are forced to play in a tiny lane, you are essentially using/working with a forward and backwards only playing motion. Boring.

Not to mention, the games do not flow well with bottlenecks either. You want a map where the action takes place in various locations and one area can easily access the next, so the player never knows where something (a weapon or an enemy car) might come at them from.

The most played, well liked maps? Typically they have been the more open ones.

Power Plant, Suburbs, Sewers, Junkyard, Moscow, Paris, LA Roofs...
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #64 - 07/20/12 at 01:19:30
 
I like snowy roads, I understand why many deplore highway loop; it's bland and there's no real complexity to it, there should have been more interspersed passages IMO.

Harbor City looks like, if it had been completed, to have had many open space levels like black. I always dreamed of a TM with the interconnected level system. I remember writing posts at the previous TMA about how awesome that would be, before I knew of HC. Goes to show you it's a good idea, as many did agree. It's a shame, I guess I'm the minority that thinks the foot missions would have made the level changes a genius enterprise in tandem with eachother. A large connected world with intimate experiences as the characters themselves.
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #65 - 07/20/12 at 02:17:54
 
Yes I was bummed about the interview too.

Would have loved some HC info and while many of the fans like (love?) TMSB many others including myself believe it's one of the weaker Incog entries.

Other than one brief action clip that game wasn't even mentioned...very strange.

And Rip: so you'd pay $100 for the driving sections of HC?

I'm sure you'll have ex coders queing up for that price...

Grin
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #66 - 07/20/12 at 03:06:25
 
I'm curious,... What's necessarily significant of Kirk Baum exactly? Care to tell Kil? Or anyone?
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #67 - 07/20/12 at 20:43:55
 
RoaDiE wrote on 07/20/12 at 00:52:06:
Heres another that made me cringe:


http://i.imgur.com/gqtDm.gif

From my experience, the worst levels typically have been the ones hes describing here: Windy roads, bottlenecks, really are not conducive of car combat.

Evidence: Highway Loop aka the worst level in TM history. Second place = Snowy Roads

Freedom of movement is essential to the game play experience, half of good car combat is shooting but movement and angles of approach is the other half. If you are forced to play in a tiny lane, you are essentially using/working with a forward and backwards only playing motion. Boring.

Not to mention, the games do not flow well with bottlenecks either. You want a map where the action takes place in various locations and one area can easily access the next, so the player never knows where something (a weapon or an enemy car) might come at them from.

The most played, well liked maps? Typically they have been the more open ones.

Power Plant, Suburbs, Sewers, Junkyard, Moscow, Paris, LA Roofs...


I always liked a blend of the two, kind of why Sun Springs is my favorite map in TMPS3.
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #68 - 07/20/12 at 21:11:05
 
Zerathustra wrote on 07/20/12 at 03:06:25:
I'm curious,... What's necessarily significant of Kirk Baum exactly? Care to tell Kil? Or anyone?


You mean why is he so cool?

Absolutely.  One thing that I think TM 2012 has really emphasized for me is that no one person can really be responsible for the greatness of what a game is.  They are HUGE projects, and we tend to focus far too much on just the big names involved.

Maybe TM 2012 is your fave game of the series.  If that is true, it wasn't just Dave or Scott that were involved, it was a huge team.  In fact, the group that actually creates the guts of what we all love, makes that vision happen, is never the Scotts or Daves of the group.  They dream it, others interpret it and make it.  Dave would certainly agree to this statement, so I'm not saying anything new to him but it may be new to some of us.

So it is with the old Twisted Metals.  It's no surprise to me anymore that TM 2012 was not my fave, and in fact, it's no surprise to me that a lot of the things the fans loved about the past games Dave and Scott seemed to be unaware those traits even existed.  Many, many people who made TM, TM2, and TMB successful were not a part of the ESP effort.

Kirk Baum is one of those peeps.  He was involved in TM1, TM2, several Singletrac games, and TMB/TMBO.  He was also a lead network guru on Warhawk.  

One thing that was awesome about Kirk was he showed a deep deference and respect for the fan base.  He would not only come to TMA and post amongst us and get us hyped about the game on a pretty regular basis, but he would actually PLAY with TMA, online for MONTHS or perhaps even YEARS.  That type of dedication was just awesome to be a part of.  When TMHO came out and many of us had trouble connecting, he appeared on TMA and helped walk us through it.  

Finally, he is literally the savior of TMBO.  One of Sony's biggest epic fails for their first online releases on the PS2 is that they were afraid to give any type of chat functionality at all to any of the games that weren't rated M (probably because they were worried it would mean the game was miss-rated when peeps cussed up a storm - in fact if you read their boxes now they say online interactions may change the game rating).  

So, when TMBO came out they ordered Incognito to gut the chat code, and for the first three months the player base believed there was no chat.  Had this continued, the game would have died a much earlier death.  However, as legend has it, Kirk (as far as I know he has never admitted to this, but we all believe it was him) ignored that order and left a code in the North American release that would activate the chat.  Legend has it he also got in trouble for it (it's not in the European release that came after).

So, he's a hero.  'Nuff said.
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« Last Edit: 07/21/12 at 10:04:51 by N/A »  
 
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #69 - 07/21/12 at 00:14:31
 
Also, long ago, Kirk promised he'd keep the server up for as long as he could, and it stayed around until Incog disbanded. Four and a half years of good good times. I'll raise a glass for Kirk anytime.

There were a lot of other cool Incog guys back then too. I sometimes played one on ones with Nathan Martinez and Steve Ceragioli. Awesome games, and great memories. I remember Mike Bartholomew and Nathan Martinez did some awesome informative TMA posts. I  wish I remembered more.
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #70 - 07/21/12 at 00:49:41
 
   Ah, all you TMA vets have great stories of twisted legend, so to speek. I wish I new of TMA back in 2002 ( that's when I first got black). I didnt find out about TMA untill 2006, back when it was a more structured site. Back when there was a section for each TM tittle, fanart, and funny TM caption pics. Does anyone have any of those old pics laying on their hard drive? Oooo like that one of warhawk saying "million dolor flight-suit you just blasted a shit in, PRICELESS!" ahhh nostalgia.
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #71 - 07/21/12 at 01:07:56
 
2 things come to mind here:

1. Kirk B reminds me of the classic Atari programmers who would secretly leave easter eggs (credits or small features) in their games against managements permission back in the early 80's.

(I loved this btw)

2. It also makes me wonder what would happen if Kirk were to lead up a TM project?
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #72 - 07/21/12 at 09:09:56
 
I remember the 1st time "chat" was discovered in TMBO. Seriously WTF?? How the fuck?

There it was. Someone in the room going to "chat" and back. What made it so messed up is, if you didn't know how, you had to make rooms in the lobby litterally named "chat=R1L1R1L1R1" or something like that so everyone that didn't know could see it.

And my God what a pain in the ass if you didn't use a USB KB. Once you knew you could KB it, it made the game much more fun belive it or not. Not only could you talk shit or whatever as fast as you could type but, it made a huge difference and made it alot easier.

It was even more fun getting around the censor filter too, to find ways to cuss without it blanking it out. Some regular words in the English language were censored too that were not cuss words at all. It was really funny.

SH8!! F()CK!! R@PE!! B0LWM3!! etc etc etc....

I wonder if that was really the start of "text speak" as we know it due to the fact that wasn't really around at that point in time. Could TMA started the text speak revolution??

Cheesy
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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #73 - 07/21/12 at 11:55:35
 
Archminion wrote on 07/21/12 at 01:07:56:
2 things come to mind here:

1. Kirk B reminds me of the classic Atari programmers who would secretly leave easter eggs (credits or small features) in their games against managements permission back in the early 80's.

(I loved this btw)

2. It also makes me wonder what would happen if Kirk were to lead up a TM project?


From what I have heard the guy seems like he had a real passion for his work on TM.

I did a quick google search on the guy and his linkedin account and he seems to be working with Disney now on their video games. Sad to see he couldn't have worked on TMPS3 and added that passion to that game.


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Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Reply #74 - 07/21/12 at 16:53:08
 
He was cool to chat with.

I remember chatting with Kirk back in 2000 in the TMA chat room.

I asked him if he could add the 'Pope mobile' in the next game, he then told me that the pope would not fit very well in a combat game.

This might have lead to the 'Brimestone' character but I have no confirmation of that.

It would be cool if someone at TMA was able to contact him somehow.
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