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Message started by Muddeh on 02/07/18 at 02:21:56

Title: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Muddeh on 02/07/18 at 02:21:56
Obligatory topic for the video Jaffe recently uploaded concerning TM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBbxfmf6l3Q

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Thumpy on 02/07/18 at 03:10:53
Nothing new here

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 02/07/18 at 10:11:54
It’s always interesting seeing Jaffe’s take on the series. I actually think he’s right when it comes to what it would take for the series to come back. The two options are either a lower budget option similar to Rocket League, or to reinvent the series so that it still has car combat as an option, but it adds so much more. A grand theft auto realization, if they’d done it prior to Grand Theft Auto III, would have probably kept the series going indefinitely. It’s interesting to wonder what might have been, but no one was brave enough to pony that much money up back in the day. It’s clear from the recent documents shared on here that Incog had considered such a move as early as 1999.



However, I have to laugh when he talks about the fractured fan base. He HAS to hold to that reality, because if he doesn’t, then he has to fess up to the idea that his most recent Twisted, despite all his hard work, was pretty “meh” compared to the previous titles. The truth is what it is though. The hardcore hated it for two very simple reasons:



1.   It was broken as *?!@#! (online was completely unplayable the first month, nearly unplayable for three months after, and consistently crashy with features that never worked even to this date – and add to that that fat PS3’s sometimes couldn’t play it – this is just HORRIBLE and remains to this day one of the most buggy unplayable messes I’ve ever bought).

2.   It was significantly dumbed down.



Both of those reasons are legitimate reasons for rejecting a game. What’s interesting, is if he had managed to nail the first one many of the hardcore still would have messed with it for a while and had some fun. TMHO was very dumbed down next to Black, but despite that I still fooled around with it for a good eight months until its own bugs began to be exploited to such a degree that it was unplayable. Admittedly TMHO is a superior game to TMX, but still, it’s important to keep in mind that if your game is a buggy mess it significantly impacts how much your consumer will put up with it.



The second option is just a stupid one to ignore. There are no casual fans out there who despise depth so long as they can still play casual, and making it so that defensive options exist to the same degree as offensive doesn’t turn anybody off. He talks about how much fun people tell him they had playing TMX multiplayer which is no surprise – the core of TM multiplayer, even when dumbed down, is vastly superior, different, and unique to most of the stuff out there right now. If you add the depth of the previous games it keeps the hardcore players coming back, and the casuals still have fun. Win/win. There’s not a player on the planet who would have turned off TMX if they found out that you can dodge missiles. “OMG – depth – this game is crap!”



The worldwide argument is a serious one. Twisted Metal has always struggled worldwide, but at the same time, it has never had a fair shake worldwide. The damage both Sony and ESP have done to the franchise has never done it any favors. With TMB, they gutted the single player game. In an era where that was still the big draw in all video games that was just patently stupid. In the ESP era, they released a non-functioning multiplayer focused product to a country that already didn’t believe in the product – that’s like throwing sodium in a toilet bowl right there.



Here’s what Twisted needs, on any level, to be reborn:



1.   It needs to be a functioning non buggy mess that does exactly what it says it will do. If it says you can do 8 vs 8 multiplayer, you’d better be able to.

2.   It should have the depth of the previous games, and the features of the previous games that fans loved (ability to remove healths – easy peasy – and why not reinsert relics which was a cool idea and people loved them). In short, it has to pay respect to what came before it instead of completely ignoring its existing evolution.

3.   It needs to ditch the M rating – Twisted always sold best as a series that the family could sit around and blow each other away in. A mass murdering Sweet Tooth dropping f bombs relegates it to late night gaming away from kids, and prevents numerous 12 year olds from convincing their mom to buy it for them. First person shooters and survival horror gets away with it, but it doesn’t do other genres as many favors.



Do I think it will happen? No.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Mr.SLaM on 02/07/18 at 16:23:13
While I'd love both a Crash Bandicoot style remaster of Twisted Metal 1 and 2, or a Twisted Metal PS3 remaster fix, I have given up on Sony or Jaffe delivering what Twisted Metal fans want.

We don't want a garbage micro transaction fueled free to play shit pile.
I don't want Rocket League with loot boxes and hyper competitive multiplayer.
I don't mind a healthy multiplayer keeping players engaged, but if it's at the expense of losing single player, and harming core gameplay, I'm out.

I've actually just been working on my own car combat title with a few folks because we want to make a title we want.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Richard -Dick- Biggs on 02/07/18 at 20:56:48
I think that what TMX needed was something similar to what Netherrealm did with MK9, in regards to the story mode. A plot where you could go more in-depth with the characters, the relationships between each other, their struggles (if you're a good guy) inside the demented TM world, but keeping the twisted edge the series is known for. Maybe, exclusive for the story, create new stages beetwen each official tournament battleground where you move from one battle to another, with more scripted scenes and secrets and stuff.

But I think getting the series away from pure vehicular combat is a huge mistake, since it's so intrinsic to the TM world. The races is TMX weren't well received, on foot sections would totally piss off a lot of people, as would do driving missions like the ones in GTA (or even Roadkill). I just think stuff like that would be incredibly unpolished, that's because deep, balanced and well-made vehicular combat in itself requires too much effort alone, nevermind the stories.

It is a genre that could be more exploited, but you can see it's potential in fighting games, the later need little else besides the core fighting to be popular and acclaimed. But it has been damaged by the fact that only one series of games really understands it.

But whatever happens with the series, I already have TM1, 2, Black, HO, X and Rogue Trip, and that's fairly enough to feed my car combat needs.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Vlygar on 02/08/18 at 12:48:01
Making a TM game without Jaffe just doesn't seem right.  We've seen the results twice, before.  I am wondering if he still has the license for Rogue Trip.  He could continue on with that.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 02/09/18 at 02:36:23

Vlygar wrote on 02/08/18 at 12:48:01:
Making a TM game without Jaffe just doesn't seem right.  We've seen the results twice, before.  I am wondering if he still has the license for Rogue Trip.  He could continue on with that.


Ummmm, Jaffe never played any role in Rogue Trip whatsoever.

So if you liked that one, clearly you can have car combat without him.

He DID play a role in TMPS3.  That one was ass.

He wasn't at all involved in TMHO . . . and that one was average.

So hell, let's just not take a risk and let him retire from the genre like he wants to.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Thumpy on 02/10/18 at 21:35:32
Got a feeling Jaffe wants to come back to TM.

If so, he'll have to hire some talent this time.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Vlygar on 02/11/18 at 19:28:04

Malefactor wrote on 02/09/18 at 02:36:23:
Ummmm, Jaffe never played any role in Rogue Trip whatsoever.

So if you liked that one, clearly you can have car combat without him.

He DID play a role in TMPS3.  That one was ass.

He wasn't at all involved in TMHO . . . and that one was average.

So hell, let's just not take a risk and let him retire from the genre like he wants to.


I could have sworn Jaffe was involved with Rogue Trip.  I am pretty sure he was still with singletrac, at that time.  Supposing he wasn't with Singletrac at that time, then the same creative team could make another TM.  I dunno what you are talking about with TM 2012 and TM Head On.  Both are fantastic games. 

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by †Adonael on 02/11/18 at 20:44:06
I believe Rouge trip was Scott's baby.

I kinda agree with Jaffe on this one.

As far as TMX's integrity as a game, it is a good game. It plays and works like it should. EXCEPT for the online. Which was a huge issue.

When Brand damage happens to a title companies tend to ditch them and replace them with a new IP.

Jet Moto 3 did brand damage to that series thus causing Sony to drop it.

Driv3r did the same to the driver series, despite that some how infograms still pumped out two more games (parallel lines and San Francisco were great.) But Ubi lost faith in the brand name because sales we'rent as high as they expected and it all goes back to the brand damage done by Driv3r (Which is why that team now does Watchdogs which was originally going to be a driver game, just not with all the hacking.)

Reason Twisted continued on, was despite  the games being vastly different they still sold like hot cakes. The real damage didn't happen until TMX and the Online features being completely broken.

All this ties up into a consumer looking at the name of a game and going "Oh this is (Game name.) Thats buggy bullshit."

And not picking up the game.


Now where I don't agree with Jaffe is the relevance of the series. I don't think they need to do some MAJOR "AAA" change to twisted metal to make it "mainstream and good."

Look at games like Tekken, (Which is mainly a big hit in Japan, but still does decent everywhere else,)
They found a good formula, stuck to it and only made slight improvements to fine tune the mechanics rather than trying to rewrite the book every new game.

I think if they would of stuck to that formula found in the old games and continued with that and improved it to perfection that it might of been a different story.

But on the creative side of things i could see how that could get monotonous as hell. Which I think is why they decided to take a huge leap with TMX.

Not because we were bored with it, but because they were.

Alright. Thats probably my longest post in TMA history. I gotta  get back to work.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 02/12/18 at 02:03:39

Vlygar wrote on 02/11/18 at 19:28:04:
I could have sworn Jaffe was involved with Rogue Trip.  I am pretty sure he was still with singletrac, at that time.  Supposing he wasn't with Singletrac at that time, then the same creative team could make another TM.  I dunno what you are talking about with TM 2012 and TM Head On.  Both are fantastic games. 


Jaffe was never with  Singletrac. Jaffe was with Sony, later Sony Santa Monica. He partnered with Singletrac to make TM and TM2. Later, Singletrac was bought out by GT Interactive which is when they made Rogue Trip, which is not a Sony product and Jaffe had nothing to do with it. Later, MOST of Singletrac left to form Incognito Entertainment, and made Twisted Metal Black. Shortly after that they were bought by Sony. Jaffe partnered with Incognito to make Black, but again, he was in a separate company. Later, Incognito fell apart and SOME of them and Jaffe left to form ESP and make TM 2012. That was the FIRST Twisted game Jaffe made where he was a part of the core developing company. He left shortly after release.

As for the rushed and dumbed down TMHO, and the buggy and dumber downed TMX being fantastic, you're adorable.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Vlygar on 02/12/18 at 15:22:44
Why, thank you.  I get by on my adorableness.

So, what's the deal with Jaffe jumping ship right after a new game release?  I've noticed he has done this after several releases.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by †Adonael on 02/12/18 at 18:41:30
Jaffe doesn't like to continue making the same game over and over I believe. He tends to want to work on other projects for creativity sake I would guess.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Thumpy on 02/14/18 at 09:06:57
http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/01/23/twisted-metal-creator-david-jaffes-latest-project-canceled-major-layoffs-affect-studio


Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 02/14/18 at 10:33:41

Thumpy wrote on 02/14/18 at 09:06:57:
http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/01/23/twisted-metal-creator-david-jaffes-latest-project-canceled-major-layoffs-affect-studio


Damn . . . that really sucks.

I mean, I want him to stay away from Twisted Metal, and admittedly, I really hated Drawn to Death's tone, but I don't wish ill will on the guy or his future.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Thumpy on 02/14/18 at 19:17:28
I agree.

Lets hope he does well on his next project.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by tmfan89 on 02/17/18 at 12:33:14

Muddeh wrote on 02/07/18 at 02:21:56:
Obligatory topic for the video Jaffe recently uploaded concerning TM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBbxfmf6l3Q


Not much new really. but it is encouraging to hear that TM Black was one of the highest selling PS2 digital games.

I think if we are looking at Twisted Metal's possible return a TM2 HD remaster with online play would be the way to go. A 15$ digital game seems like a good price point if the online features were good. A rerelease of TMPS3 with worked out online at a 15$ price point could work but I think you want to go back to the most popular game in the series to really gauge fan interest.

Then if that were to sell well you could consider a 30$ digital new TM with a simplistic story mode (2 simple bosses, comic book style cut scenes, and just straightforward deathmatch) and a heavy focus on online play (But with local multiplayer.)

I think that would scratch the itch of as many people as possible. A simple story mode written by Jaffe gives those lore and single player fans their satisfaction. Then the online play gives the game legs and hits the itch for the fans of the series who want a good online experience. Toss in local multiplayer and you make as many people happy as possible.

The graphics don't have to be insanely good, just make it a half a step above TMPS3 and I think that would satisfy people. The story mode could be kept simple to lower costs too.

Overall I am glad to see Jaffe keep the fans updated as much as possible. But right now the franchises best hope is an HD remaster of TM2, if that sells well then I think we have a case for optimism. TMPS3 sold solid about just over a million copies, but in the age of HD development that's not that good. So I think smaller scale projects are a good way to go if the franchise has a future which I hope it does.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by tmfan89 on 02/17/18 at 12:41:21

Mr.SLaM wrote on 02/07/18 at 16:23:13:
While I'd love both a Crash Bandicoot style remaster of Twisted Metal 1 and 2, or a Twisted Metal PS3 remaster fix, I have given up on Sony or Jaffe delivering what Twisted Metal fans want.

We don't want a garbage micro transaction fueled free to play shit pile.
I don't want Rocket League with loot boxes and hyper competitive multiplayer.
I don't mind a healthy multiplayer keeping players engaged, but if it's at the expense of losing single player, and harming core gameplay, I'm out.

I've actually just been working on my own car combat title with a few folks because we want to make a title we want.


I think a HD remaster of TM2 is the best we can hope for at this moment. It would be fairly affordable to do and there is an audience for it (The most popular game in the franchise.) Give me a visually upgraded version of that game (Similar to what they did with Crash) and load it up with solid online play and I will be happy.

Then maybe if that sells well you can get a smaller budget 20-30$ new TM game that focuses on gameplay rather than graphics. Hell, upgrade the TMPS3 engine and I think you can create something cheap enough that can sell really well.

But right now the franchise's only hope is an HD remaster selling well.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Infernal on 03/14/18 at 22:23:27
Does the TMB digital sales include the voucher codes from TMX? Regardless, it was good to hear that it was in the top three.

A remaster of either one or both titles would be the next direction. I feel like there needs to be a refresher of what TM really is for the casual fans who have heard of TM before. TMX didn't do a great job in attracting newcomers but we all know that haha.

Should we get a new TM, I don't know if I want Jaffe in the mix again or leave it up to Campbell.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 03/15/18 at 15:46:19

Infernal wrote on 03/14/18 at 22:23:27:
Should we get a new TM, I don't know if I want Jaffe in the mix again or leave it up to Campbell.


My vote? Neither.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by tmfan89 on 03/18/18 at 10:33:57

Infernal wrote on 03/14/18 at 22:23:27:
Does the TMB digital sales include the voucher codes from TMX? Regardless, it was good to hear that it was in the top three.

A remaster of either one or both titles would be the next direction. I feel like there needs to be a refresher of what TM really is for the casual fans who have heard of TM before. TMX didn't do a great job in attracting newcomers but we all know that haha.

Should we get a new TM, I don't know if I want Jaffe in the mix again or leave it up to Campbell.


Black's sales numbers are for the PS4 digital store. The Black code that was given with early copies of TMX was for the PS3 download store, so that wouldn't have any impact on the new sales. I would like to see Jaffe and a small team from Sony Santa Monica handle a TM2 HD remaster. Have Campbell on as an advisor for sure but get Jaffe to handle the series.

I know Jaffe hasn't done a great game since God of War but to me Twisted Metal and Jaffe kind of need each other at the moment and it would be a one last shot at redemption deal for both in my mind.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by MoshfieldAsylum on 03/18/18 at 19:48:13
https://www.psu.com/news/twisted-metal-ps4-return-sweet-tooth-demolition-derby/ New article about the state of Twisted Metal.
and http://www.gamerevolution.com/news/375493-david-jaffe-reveals-canceled-twisted-metal-superheroes an article about the cancelled Jaffe game which would have been another Drawn to Death but with superheroes (the article calls it 'twisted metal with superheroes' but they're using Jaffe's words).

The thing is I don't want Jaffe involved in a future Twisted Metal, and I'm not the only one. I don't think Scott Campbell would want to work with him either considering what went down between them with EatSleepPlay, but I wouldn't mind Scott C.'s involvement (as long as he finally realizes sniper rifles in TM is a stupid idea, heh).
I think 'Drawn to Death' and the Bartlet Jones studio was a failure mostly because of Jaffe's ideas and attitude honestly. It wasn't bad reviews that killed that game, and it wasn't Sony's fault for not promoting the heck out of a below average arena shooter with a small-to-nonexistent fanbase. The game made no money and nobody plays it. Having Jaffe involved in a future TM is too much a risk. It'd probably end up being another disaster. He has already contributed his concepts and designs for Twisted Metal, a long time ago, so why would he still be needed? his game-play ideas are not that good, it's in part what sunk Drawn to Death. and funny how Jaffe suddenly wants to talk about Twisted Metal now that he has no studio. any time anyone tried to talk about TM to him on the Drawn to Death forum he'd just ignore the comment. if people complained about TMX's issues to him on Twitter, he'd ignore the comment. But suddenly we're supposed to believe he has been passionate about Twisted Metal all along? Fuck that.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 03/18/18 at 23:20:37

tmfan89 wrote on 03/18/18 at 10:33:57:
Black's sales numbers are for the PS4 digital store. The Black code that was given with early copies of TMX was for the PS3 download store, so that wouldn't have any impact on the new sales. I would like to see Jaffe and a small team from Sony Santa Monica handle a TM2 HD remaster. Have Campbell on as an advisor for sure but get Jaffe to handle the series.

I know Jaffe hasn't done a great game since God of War but to me Twisted Metal and Jaffe kind of need each other at the moment and it would be a one last shot at redemption deal for both in my mind.


That’s like saying we need cancer. I’m with Mosh. I’d rather the series stay dead than have another Jaffe version.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Muddeh on 03/19/18 at 01:53:24
Let's be realistic. The overwhelming majority of Twisted Metal players are casuals that don't hold a negative view of Jaffe. In fact, I can almost guarantee that if a new TM were announced and Jaffe weren't a part of it, the game would immediately be stigmatized for not having its original creative director and immediately face an uphill battle to prove itself as an authentic instalment in the series.

Even though we know otherwise, there's practically no gaming news outlets or pundits that have ever presented a narrative that would suggest Jaffe was a root cause of TM 2012's, or even Drawn to Death's major flaws. I wouldn't want to see Jaffe direct another TM but I think it's integral that he be involved in the project, even if just as a consultant, simply in order to have his name in the credits so that the game isn't dismissed with the assumption it will flop like III and 4 did.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 03/19/18 at 03:51:51

Muddeh wrote on 03/19/18 at 01:53:24:
Let's be realistic. The overwhelming majority of Twisted Metal players are casuals that don't hold a negative view of Jaffe. In fact, I can almost guarantee that if a new TM were announced and Jaffe weren't a part of it, the game would immediately be stigmatized for not having its original creative director and immediately face an uphill battle to prove itself as an authentic instalment in the series.

Even though we know otherwise, there's practically no gaming news outlets or pundits that have ever presented a narrative that would suggest Jaffe was a root cause of TM 2012's, or even Drawn to Death's major flaws. I wouldn't want to see Jaffe direct another TM but I think it's integral that he be involved in the project, even if just as a consultant, simply in order to have his name in the credits so that the game isn't dismissed with the assumption it will flop like III and 4 did.


Who cares? I’m not basing my opinion on what the masses want. If he’s involved I’d rather it stay dead.

However, you are WAY over rating his selling power. His own recent history proves it doesn’t mean much. The only video game series I’m aware of that has any sort of truly close tie to its director is Metal Gear, and yet even that series has proven it will still be financially successful without Kojima.

God of War, TM 989 (which were huge sellers by the way)  and TMHO all prove Jaffe isn’t needed for sales. TM could go on just fine, and likely even better, without him.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Muddeh on 03/19/18 at 06:59:10
I was responding to Mosh whether or not it would be realistic to have Jaffe involved with another game. Your opinion is fine but unrelated since the series is dead in your eyes anyways.

Am I really overrating his influence? If you go to Drawn to Death's Metacritic page, five of the seven featured critic reviews not only have Jaffe's name in the review, but in the review abstract as well. How many other games' review abstracts on Metacritic mention the director, let alone that many times? It's equal to Kojima's presence on MGSV: The Phantom Pain's Metacritic page, as his name is also mentioned in five of seven featured critic reviews' abstracts.

In fact, Metal Gear Survive is a great case study of what could potentially result if Jaffe isn't involved. Survive will likely still be profitable for Konami since they reused the same engine and a lot of assets so it likely didn't cost that much to develop it in the first place, but it has been reported that it only sold 5% of copies sold by MGSV: The Phantom Pain at debut.

Admittedly, Kojima's absence wasn't the sole reason for the lack of sales considering that Survive is a spin-off and there's already a lot of consumer angst towards Konami that's been brewing for years. Still, it's comparable to Jaffe and the TM series since there's already a stigma against games Jaffe wasn't involved in. It's even perpetuated in The Dark Past documentary in regards to III and 4.

The sales success of III and 4 hardly matters since it was both a time before the internet was the main source for game previews/coverage and it was still before Jaffe had enough success to have name recognition. Head-On is pretty negligible too since it was still developed by Incognito, and it wasn't until after God of War that Jaffe had high-tier name recognition. God of War III was another acclaimed release so there was no stigma associated with Jaffe parting from the series. TM is a completely different story.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 03/19/18 at 19:01:10
That's cool you were responding to Mosh. I was responding to you. Me believing it's dead is completely irrelevant.

Your analysis conveniently overlooks the fact that none of his recent games, INCLUDING Twisted Metal have sold, and we have Twisted Metals that sold well without him. God of War sold even better without him too.

Keep writing pages of dialogue to argue your point, but the fact is the actual evidence says he's not necessary, and even makes things worse.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by MoshfieldAsylum on 03/19/18 at 20:59:43

Muddeh wrote on 03/19/18 at 01:53:24:
Let's be realistic. The overwhelming majority of Twisted Metal players are casuals that don't hold a negative view of Jaffe. In fact, I can almost guarantee that if a new TM were announced and Jaffe weren't a part of it, the game would immediately be stigmatized for not having its original creative director and immediately face an uphill battle to prove itself as an authentic instalment in the series.

Even though we know otherwise, there's practically no gaming news outlets or pundits that have ever presented a narrative that would suggest Jaffe was a root cause of TM 2012's, or even Drawn to Death's major flaws. I wouldn't want to see Jaffe direct another TM but I think it's integral that he be involved in the project, even if just as a consultant, simply in order to have his name in the credits so that the game isn't dismissed with the assumption it will flop like III and 4 did.


get the fuck outta here lol. did anyone complain of Mike Giam's lack of involvement in the TM series despite being a co-creator of Twisted Metal?

and I am being realistic, not emotional. nobody is going to mind Jaffe not being part of a TM game. plenty of casuals like non-jaffe TM games (TM4, Small Brawl, Head-On), and even PS All Stars Battle Royale didn't feel Jaffe was necessary as a consultant and that game's more successful than TMX.

and how do casuals = people who give a fuck about Jaffe? That is kind of a contradiction, no? Casuals don't give a fuck about anything except if a game is good or not.

And if the failure of TMX and Drawn to Death is not in part because of Jaffe, then who? What kind of world we living in where people aren't held accountable for what they do? People lost their jobs because him u know. Oh, but it's not his fault, is it? He only founded both those studios and made the games.

But I don't really want to argue this endlessly. If there are many fans who still want a Jaffe game, fine. I used to be that person. Just be careful what you wish for. You just might get it, & regret it.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Muddeh on 03/19/18 at 22:02:10
@Malefactor

Your first post after mine immediately began with defending your opinion that the series is better off dead if Jaffe were to be involved in a future game, when I wasn’t challenging that stance at all. I’m just assuring if you that if you don’t want another TM with Jaffe, that’s fine. I’ve mentioned I would prefer him to not be involved as well. :)

TM 2012 definitely undersold overall, but it did have a decent launch considering its competition at the time. It could have potentially been an even greater trainwreck if Jaffe wasn’t involved and the question of whether it’d have been a legit TM was floating around causing the game to even be avoided at launch. As for Drawn to Death, I can almost guarantee it wouldn’t have received a quarter of the media coverage and community involvement if Jaffe’s name wasn’t attached to the game. His involvement was one of the sole reasons anyone cared at all about a bland run-of-the-mill arena shooter from a completely unknown studio.

@Mosh

Quit twisting shit. Mike Giam doesn't have name recognition, so that's a useless analogy. I already mentioned why TMs from decades ago don't matter, because Jaffe didn't have widespread name recognition yet. By casuals, I mean those uninformed that Jaffe's role as director was one of the root causes of those games' failures, and buy into the narrative that games media presents that constantly presents his involvement as substantial and in a positive light.

I sure as hell am not going up to bat for Jaffe, so quit going off on unrelated tangents. He fucked up hard and I can't make it any clearer that I would prefer for him to not be directly involved in another TM. All I'm saying is that not only does his name have selling power, but there also already an unjust preexisting stigma among the uninformed masses that games that games without Jaffe's involvement fail. It doesn’t mean that the game would absolutely be damned to underperform, but it could result in an uphill battle to prove itself as a legit TM to the masses who still credit TM’s success to Jaffe, which could be a big problem for a game from such a niche genre.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 03/19/18 at 22:57:22
Fine. We can agree Jaffe gets media attention.

However, it doesn’t seem to translate to success.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Magnum on 03/20/18 at 11:03:09
::::::::::popcorn intensifies:::::::::

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Mr.SLaM on 03/22/18 at 06:56:26
Hey look Magnum, more of what destroyed this forum in the first place haha.

In all seriousness, I'm on the anti Jaffe side. Drawn to Death was such a turd for the years he spent in it.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Magnum on 03/26/18 at 19:23:56
Yea well. Opinions may vary for this shit as always. Hasn't changed much after 6 years and probably won't.

This franchise was very close to our hearts, and what this site did back in it's original form was incredible really.

TBH ya'll can argue all you want. Until a new TM is made and it's actually good, your just spitting at each other.

We do have a Dead Horse post on Brawl BTW. It's always lonely in there..........

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Vlygar on 03/27/18 at 13:04:10

MoshfieldAsylum wrote on 03/18/18 at 19:48:13:
I don't think Scott Campbell would want to work with him either considering what went down between them with EatSleepPlay, but I wouldn't mind Scott C.'s involvement (as long as he finally realizes sniper rifles in TM is a stupid idea, heh).


Wait, what happened between Campbell and Jaffe?  As far as I know, they are both friends and would have no problem working with eachother.  Jaffe even talked about Campbell on one of his video logs.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Magnum on 03/27/18 at 21:14:15
Look it up in Wikipedia or Google or something.

I'm sure it's in there. 

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by MoshfieldAsylum on 03/28/18 at 07:25:03

Vlygar wrote on 03/27/18 at 13:04:10:
Wait, what happened between Campbell and Jaffe?  As far as I know, they are both friends and would have no problem working with eachother.  Jaffe even talked about Campbell on one of his video logs.



https://www.gamespot.com/articles/jaffe-leaving-eat-sleep-play-studio-shifting-to-mobile-report/1100-6349898/

Take a look at the article that came out in 2012 when Jaffe left ESP.
Keep in mind EatSleepPlay was founded by both Jaffe and Campbell. Instead of Jaffe staying with EatSleepPlay he left because
1- He did not want to travel to Salt Lake City to work on the game, and wanted to start a new local studio in San Diego.
2 - He did not want to work on mobile games like Scott Campbell wanted to. Jaffe makes the dick-ish remark "I have zero plans to make games like Farmville and Angry Birds." EatSleepPlay's eventual mobile game Cars Vs. Bosses was Twisted Metal-ish though.

Those 2 reasons are pretty selfish and I don't doubt Scott Campbell was pissed. What's Scott supposed to do, bring Salt Lake City to San Diego for the convenience of one guy over everyone else? And Jaffe may not be into mobile games, but to ditch the studio he co-founded and leave it all on Scott C.'s lap wasn't right. On top of that, Jaffe said he'd stick around and help EatSleepPlay perfect TMX - which never really happened. The patches were ineffective for the most part and didn't stop TMX's bleeding. Then he goes on to make Drawn to Death  - spends about 4 years on that game only for it to be DOA on launch. How is it he spent as long on Drawn to Death as he did on TMX when he didn't have to travel 300 miles? Meanwhile EatSleepPlay goes out of business - with Jaffe's San Diego studio eventually going out of business too. If I'm Scott Campbell I'm thinking it was a mistake to deal with Jaffe to begin with. why would he want to put himself through that again? as for Jaffe's point-of-view, I wouldn't know - I don't think he has anything against Scott - but It's very unlikely Scott would work with David again. That may be speculation based on facts, but it's not like they would ever publicly feud because that would be unprofessional.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 03/28/18 at 09:58:35

MoshfieldAsylum wrote on 03/28/18 at 07:25:03:


https://www.gamespot.com/articles/jaffe-leaving-eat-sleep-play-studio-shifting-to-mobile-report/1100-6349898/

Take a look at the article that came out in 2012 when Jaffe left ESP.
Keep in mind EatSleepPlay was founded by both Jaffe and Campbell. Instead of Jaffe staying with EatSleepPlay he left because
1- He did not want to travel to Salt Lake City to work on the game, and wanted to start a new local studio in San Diego.
2 - He did not want to work on mobile games like Scott Campbell wanted to. Jaffe makes the dick-ish remark "I have zero plans to make games like Farmville and Angry Birds." EatSleepPlay's eventual mobile game Cars Vs. Bosses was Twisted Metal-ish though.

Those 2 reasons are pretty selfish and I don't doubt Scott Campbell was pissed. What's Scott supposed to do, bring Salt Lake City to San Diego for the convenience of one guy over everyone else? And Jaffe may not be into mobile games, but to ditch the studio he co-founded and leave it all on Scott C.'s lap wasn't right. On top of that, Jaffe said he'd stick around and help EatSleepPlay perfect TMX - which never really happened. The patches were ineffective for the most part and didn't stop TMX's bleeding. Then he goes on to make Drawn to Death  - spends about 4 years on that game only for it to be DOA on launch. How is it he spent as long on Drawn to Death as he did on TMX when he didn't have to travel 300 miles? Meanwhile EatSleepPlay goes out of business - with Jaffe's San Diego studio eventually going out of business too. If I'm Scott Campbell I'm thinking it was a mistake to deal with Jaffe to begin with. why would he want to put himself through that again? as for Jaffe's point-of-view, I wouldn't know - I don't think he has anything against Scott - but It's very unlikely Scott would work with David again. That may be speculation based on facts, but it's not like they would ever publicly feud because that would be unprofessional.



There are some other reasons too that make it seem like there was a bit of a break up.

I don't have time to go dig through all the sources.  They're out there, and I read them, if you want to find them some digging will pull them out. Here's the big things that I saw:

1. Jaffe made several crass and crude remarks, particularly referencing women, during the development of Twisted Metal 2012 that offended quite a number of people both inside and out of the video game world. At first he was pretty firm that he did nothing wrong and refused to apologize, even doubling down on it at times.

Then from out of nowhere he apologized.  Why?  In his twitter, he explained that he found out his comments had offended members of his own company.  No doubt Scott, as co founder, played a role in trying to address what sounds like for all intents and purposes low team member morale within ESP. In Jaffe's words, once he offended members of his own staff he couldn't argue anymore that he hadn't crossed a line.

2. Shortly after leaving ESP Jaffe strongly hinted that him and ESP had had a number of arguments over how nasty the new Twisted Metal could be.  He further went on to indicate this had always been the case with his career, pointing out that with TMB he was constnatly censored (the baptism scene in Preacher's story being one of the most obvious), that with Twisted Metal: Small Brawl he had wanted a much more "adult" game (WTF?! . . . I Mean seriously, WTF?!), that he wanted "Heartland" (cancelled) to be really nasty and Incog resisted, that he wanted "Calling All Cars" to be much more "adult" (with references to more sexual material . . . again WTF . . .), and that with the new Twisted Metal (which keep in mind started out with a goal of teen) the fight had again surfaced.

He was excited to head out on his own, have complete control, and make the game he had always wanted to make.

The result?  Drawn to Death . . .  a game full of insults, "adult" humor, dicks everywhere .  .  .

He finally got what he wanted, but it looks to all of us who saw it that it was a good thing he lost those fights in all of the previous games.  :D

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Mr.SLaM on 03/29/18 at 09:47:33
I wasn't fully aware of the ESP drama, but honestly, the older I get, and the more I've followed Jaffe through his career over tge past 10 years, the more I just think the guy is very out of touch. Yes, hes has some grade A franchises under his belt, but that is with Scott and an entire dev team behind him at times.

I'm not a big fan of his personal views on anything. His political rants on Twitter just annoy me to no end, and his humor is just awful. Drawn to Death had the foundations for a fun core game, but it was trying way too hard to be edgy. Also, he had 3 years to shit that game out, and what we got out of those 4 years was a joke.

We could have an entire conversation on just why the game was ass, but we have a thread on Brawl about that.

How could look down on mobile games, but make your game free-to-play on consoles? Isn't that a bit hypocritical? I think Jaffe just does not play well with others, which is his biggest downfall, because he needs people to counter balance his more retarded ideas. He's now reduced himself to streaming, so people could listen to his drivel in full detail.

I know I should separate one's politics from their work, but in Jaffe's case, both his work and politics suck balls as of late.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. I really don't want him near a Twisted Metal game again. I don't think we need him. Small Brawl was an amazing title despite its flaws. Head-On at its core was also a fine title. They both are missing good ramming haha, but they both capture Twisted Metal at a core level very well without Jaffe's direct involvement.
TMPS3 had a lot of qualities I liked, but it certainly felt like it was missing core TM qualities I liked. The lack of single player with a full character roster, and online co-op campaign was such a let down.
The vehicle roster had some really generic vehicles too. It just missed the mark in a lot of respects, as if the Jaffe and Campbell didn't know what fans wanted. On top of which, Sony having no faith in the product either. It was just a mess, and I think Jaffe is probably a culprit.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by MoshfieldAsylum on 03/29/18 at 14:47:20

Mr.SLaM wrote on 03/29/18 at 09:47:33:
I'm not a big fan of his personal views on anything. His political rants on Twitter just annoy me to no end, and his humor is just awful. Drawn to Death had the foundations for a fun core game, but it was trying way too hard to be edgy. Also, he had 3 years to shit that game out, and what we got out of those 4 years was a joke.

We could have an entire conversation on just why the game was ass, but we have a thread on Brawl about that.

How could look down on mobile games, but make your game free-to-play on consoles? Isn't that a bit hypocritical? I think Jaffe just does not play well with others, which is his biggest downfall, because he needs people to counter balance his more retarded ideas. He's now reduced himself to streaming, so people could listen to his drivel in full detail.

I know I should separate one's politics from their work, but in Jaffe's case, both his work and politics suck balls as of late.
.


Absolutely. I almost hate to keep on criticizing Jaffe, it's like beating a dead horse, but his politics aren't helping his cause. On top of that, he thinks he's some sort of celebrity. Always playing the "creator of Twisted Metal and God of War" card... overplaying his hand though. A little research shows that his original vision for Twisted Metal included flying vehicles and hover cars and controversial stuff in the later titles that had to be scrapped. It's a good thing his power was limited then, it allowed those games to succeed. Then you look at Drawn to Death, a game he had complete control over - and it's a turd.
He is like the George Lucas of video games. Lucas was better when he didn't have total control either. But unlike Lucas, Jaffe hasn't moved on. I think he's convinced himself that Twisted Metal is nothing without him.
So that ego, mixed with his ignorance/stupid political commentary is a dangerous mix. He's quick to think he's always right and like a typical far-leftie from Cali he needs to place blame everywhere except on himself. It showed with Drawn to Death during its beta/private access period. He couldn't take negative feedback, nor couldn't mange the community in a peaceful way. He would however talk with those who always agreed with him and had nothing but praise for his games - yet they weren't the best game testers. A lot of them played quite ruthlessly and would manipulate Jaffe into making changes that would benefit them and hurt new players/players they were threatened by. For instance, there was an attack in the game where you could dash & punch mid-air, without it costing energy. It was a weak ineffective attack but I realized it was an effective way to evade/dodge attacks. This infuriated certain players who were double-teaming against me and losing because I got smart to their bullshit, and they informed Jaffe, claiming that it was unfair, and a change was made where air-dashing drained a player's energy and become so pointless a move it didn't even need to exist anymore. However nothing at the time was done to prevent players from teaming up to another player's disadvantage, especially with that evasion tactic gone, and when I complained about it and said I was going to stop playing if that sort of in-game bullying continued I was the one who got punished - banned for 2 weeks from PSN & perma-banned from the DTD forum on the account I was using. And yet Jaffe and his buddies continued to talk about me on the forum after trying to banish me, so I went on an alt-account to call him out as a hypocrite. I then proceeded to be pretty much the best player on the beta version, ranking on the top 3 of the leaderboards before it was erased, just as a fuck you to them.
And the game failed, no surprise. Even the free-to-play model got dropped last minute, despite objection from Jaffe's fans, although it was released as a free PS Plus game anyway. but PS Plus users didn't care for it. Then Bartlet Jones studio had the nerve to sell DLC too (God of War/Twisted Metal skin packs). Even TMX didn't get DLC and that was a much more profitable title. Only a sucker is putting down ten dollars for some ugly GoW/TMX skins... although I got suckered into buying a PS3 thinking a great Twisted Metal would come out for it. but life doesn't always work out the way it should.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Vlygar on 03/29/18 at 20:14:23
Wow, ok.  So, quick review; Jaffe pulled a number of dick moves.  He created some classic series of games, but only because of the synergy with co-creators.  When he has a product all to himself, it falls flat.

Geez, sounds like he should be a lead singer for a band.

I watch his recent video logs and I agree with most of what he says.  Dude has some great ideas for other games.  But, if another TM gets made without him, I don't think anyone would really care if he was involved or not.  I still like Jaffe and will continue to keep an eye out for stuff he works on, though.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Malefactor on 03/30/18 at 01:46:45
Let's not forget the completely fabricated story about Mort, all told for sympathy and clicks.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by †Adonael on 03/30/18 at 02:56:40
I think what a lot of people are forgetting he isn't the sole creator. It was because of Scott and other team members as well. All he is is a designer, WITH scott in the games they made together.

Not to mention the rest of the staff that also had pull.

Don't think I'm defending the man, it's just a fact there.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Thumpy on 03/30/18 at 11:01:40
One of Jaffes game designers worked on TM3 and TM4 at 989 studios.
That was the first indication of what was going to happen at Jaffe's San Diego studio.

You need talent and passion to create a great game and I just don't think Jaffe's studio had that.

Jaffe's opinions are close to mine on many levels and I appreciate that but they don't make great games, talent and passion does and it was so important for Jaffe to have the best talent for his team.

I would like to see Dave and Scott on a winning team again, I know they would be able to direct a new team with great potential to create great games again.

MoshfieldAsylum I read what you had to put up with on 'Drawn to Death', that was bullshit FUCK THOSE GUYS.











Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by tmfan89 on 04/02/18 at 12:12:49
I still hold a positive view of Jaffe as a developer. Drawn to Death was fun for what it was but the game needed to be free to play and they initially built the game to be that way, sadly they changed the game from free to play to a digital type game and that crippled the games ability to be successful.

Twisted Metal PS3 was in my mind a good game at its core. Homing issues and other gameplay issues existed but the bosses were super fun, the graphics and style nailed it, the core mechanics were really good in my opinion, the level design was the best of the series, and the car selection was great. The online and balancing issues killed the game, sure issues existed but I had a blast when I could get the game to work and enjoyed most of the single-player experience.

Overall I think that Jaffe still has a good mind for developing video games he just needs to work with a good team that can harness his creativity. That's why he worked so well with Campbell, Campbell was an X's and O's type guy. Campbell knew how to get what Jaffe wanted to function well. But Campbell without Jaffe just lacks an X factor. TMHO was a good game but it just seemed to be too focused on reliving TM2 and it lacked something creatively.

But with the Jaffe and Campbell relationship not being there professionally (I am not sure if they still co-exist on a personal level or not) I am not sure who I would rather have manning the Twisted Metal series. My dream team would be to have Sony Santa Monica work on it with Jaffe being a creative consultant or have Campbell man the team and have Jaffe just do the story.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Vlygar on 04/05/18 at 01:44:13

tmfan89 wrote on 04/02/18 at 12:12:49:
TMHO was a good game but it just seemed to be too focused on reliving TM2 and it lacked something creatively.


In my opinion, there was only 1 major flaw with Head On.  that was the stage music.  Some tracks were perfect, but most seemed very ill-fitting.  I would actually turn off the stage music in the settings and play that way.  Other than that, I really love the game and think it's better than Black or 2012.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by tmfan89 on 04/09/18 at 04:47:35

Vlygar wrote on 04/05/18 at 01:44:13:
In my opinion, there was only 1 major flaw with Head On.  that was the stage music.  Some tracks were perfect, but most seemed very ill-fitting.  I would actually turn off the stage music in the settings and play that way.  Other than that, I really love the game and think it's better than Black or 2012.


TMHO had some issues gameplay wise (level design was bland functionally it was solid but the levels lacked personality, heavier cars had balance issues and some other smaller issues) but I thought overall it was a good game. I just couldn't put it over TM2, TMB, or TM2012.

The biggest thing that TMHO lacked, in my opinion, was personality. The levels felt so empty a lot of the time and the characters and ethos of the game seemed to be trying to emulate TM2.

I think Jaffe brought a lot of that personality that made TM1-2, TMB, and TM2012 pop. Campbell, on the other hand, seemed to make Jaffe's big ideas work while still allowing Jaffe's creativity shine through. Sony Santa Monica was also a talented team that could get Jaffe's ideas to work well. Jaffe needs that good supporting cast to make games work, without that he can never seem to get his ideas to work as well as they should.

Honestly, if I were to pick the team to run a new Twisted Metal game it would be Sony Santa Monica with Jaffe doing the stories and consulting, they helped out with some of TM2012 so they have some experience with the franchise and they are a talented team in general.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by MoshfieldAsylum on 04/09/18 at 11:32:48
Sony Santa Monica have only internally developed God of War games and Kinetica. Their collaboration with EatSleepPlay and Incognito involved funding and technical support.
So don't count on SSA internally developing a future Twisted Metal and hiring Jaffe to work on it. and Scott Campbell doesn't have a studio anymore for them to even collaborate with. what gave TM personality was the work that SingleTrac/Incognito did. unfortunately Incognito Entertainment split into 2 studios; EatSleepPlay and LightBox Interactive (who did StarHawk). Both TMX and StarHawk failed and thus those studios are no more - and Jaffe's own studio also failed - so it is all up to Sony Interactive Entertainment if they feel Twisted Metal is worth saving as the property belongs to them but I really don't see them repeating the same mistake. It would be naive of them to think appointing Jaffe as head of a new Twisted Metal project would produce better results, and they don't owe the guy a thing. like the whole idea that Jaffe would do better with a better, talented group that could make the most of his ideas - well yeah, you could say that about anybody. but Sony shouldn't have to accommodate him so that he'd be more successful. it should be the other way around. He's not entitled to unlimited opportunities because he directed TM2 & Black.

also, on Head-On - it's imitation of TM2 is deliberate of course, just like TM3's imitation of TM2. It's the World Tour concept. only 3 games went for the World Tour thing, and since TM2 did it best, the other 2 games come off as a poor man's TM2.

Title: Re: New Video from Jaffe: "The State Of Twisted Metal"
Post by Psycho Se7eN on 06/09/18 at 14:00:01
Don't forget, Scott wanted to turn TMB2 into a GTA game. And he literally got booed out of the studio for it, and it basically killed that games chances of ever getting fully completed. Imagine if that had gotten released.

Game development in general is an interesting industry experience for sure.

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