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Message started by Muddeh on 04/08/17 at 15:38:47

Title: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Muddeh on 04/08/17 at 15:38:47
If you were involved with TM 2012 during the initial months and were part of the crowd that was disgruntled about the difficulty to dodge weapons, you may have played some matches with manual aim (all players on the same team with friendly fire enabled) or imposed rules to reduce the impact of auto-aim. And more likely than not, you found it to be boring. With the limited skill players had with most weapons and vehicles, fights were usually quite drawn-out and stale to the point manual-aim matches became such a niche variant that they were entirely dropped by the community. By the time competitive scene was established and there were consistent rules for battles and wars, most everyone committed to play the game by the broader rules.

A number of vehicles/tactics were banned as they were found illegitimate or broken, but banning auto-aim entirely imposed a whole new set of rules. Truth be told, veterans in TM 2012 hadn't played no auto-aim rules in many years, and certainly not since players reached their primes after years of playing. We do goof around here and there, mixing up some settings and playing some minigames in a casual setting. However, since most of us found those rules to be boring at that time years back, that stigma has carried over the years. However, in light of some recent chats (partially influenced by posts here as well) I've arranged some lobbies with modified no auto-aim rules, which are outlined below. Note that any other weapons with homing ability are not listed because they are considered consistently dodgeable.

---

No homers.
No snipers.
Half-charge stalkers at maximum.
Do not use remote bombs for homing (environmental and detnoballs are fine).

No DW, RK, OL or VM primary or secondary special.
No MW primary special.
No DS seconary special.

No rockets sidearm.
Only use freeze missile from close range.

---

We've played by these rules a number of times now, and I recorded a few matches on one evening as shown below. Note that in this lobby there's a range of skill and not every player is a veteran stretching back to the game's launch, but everyone's a respectable players nonetheless. There's a couple instances where homers get misfired, or stalkers may get a tad overcharged, but the impact is negligible. Health was also banned for these matches, aside from mercy bonuses. The recording for the Axel video skips a tad later in the video, sorry for that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJWIN8liqPU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7dUTg-FIw4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AvtausyER4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPXVxeLYBRg

Once you take away the auto-aim, the game appears much more resemblant of previous TMs in terms of deliberate offence and defence. There's a definite presence of stagger-based combos, and both the potential for deliberate and by-chance dodging is evident. One thing that can't be erased is the speed of missiles which really shorten reaction times if playing a lightweight, and can make some weapons impossible to dodge for a heavy if they aren't already driving at a proper angle from the attacker to be able to avoid it. This means heavies will still tank fire and stalker missiles quite frequently, but as demonstrated in these matches, they can still be frequently dodged.

Although this mode has its merits and represents a lot of the tweaks I wish had actually come to fruition before patching and balancing came to a halt, I don't foresee this variant becoming the norm for standard competitive unranked the future. However, it really is a nice break from some of the frustration of auto-aim. It would be really awesome to perhaps see some TM2/TMBO vets who dropped the game back in the day give it another with these rules, now that the balance isn't whack and the servers are far more tolerable. Hopefully the videos are an enjoyable watch.  :)

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by The Truth on 04/09/17 at 01:20:26
My hope is that one day you finally understand what dodging is and the impact it has when done right. Running behind cover or the opponent missing is NOT dodging. Dodging is knowing something is coming that is going to 100% hit you and maneuvering your car in a way that makes it miss. No matter how much you butcher the game, dodging can not exist in any meaningful way like past TMs due to weapons moving at the speed of light. The levels themselves are built around no dodging and speed of light weapons.

No one was "disgruntled about the "difficulty" to dodge weapons". They were disgruntled that dodging didn't exist in a meaningful way like past TMs. This also wasn't the only thing people were disgruntled about. The car choices are straight garbage with many cars sharing the same specials. You even reinforce this as every car you used had a shockwave special. Then you have specials that are watered down like TMB darkside vs TMX darkside for example.

Those 2 main things along with other minor things plus connection issues which still exist to this day is why no one has any intention of ever playing it again.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Muddeh on 04/09/17 at 02:59:02
If you're going to offer unabridged criticism, at least make it intelligent instead of being a broken record saying that meaningful dodging doesn't exist, when it clearly does. That's not a topic of debate. Darkside does not have a shockwave special. You aren't aware of simple knowledge like that? Four vehicles have shockwaves, all of which have different attributes and can be dodged.

If you're concerned about vehicles being watered-down, you must have been up in arms that Axel didn't have its grossly overpowered damage mitigation and wasn't an untouchable god. Some watering down is bad, and some is also positive and is nesecarily to balance a game, so using 'watered down' as a blanket term is very misinformed, not to mention your lack of awareness of how much technique is involved in playing an effective Darkside in either game.

The purpose of this thread is not to rag on about the flaws of the game. I know you have nothing to contribute to this thread since you can't handle dissenting views and continually deny cold hard evidence. Unfortunately, your opinions don't become the truth simply because that's what you set your username as. If you have something new to say, have at it. If all you have to offer is regurgitated denialism, save our time and take my prior advice to do something with your life you can actually be proud of.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Malefactor on 04/09/17 at 03:16:50

Muddeh wrote on 04/09/17 at 02:59:02:
If you're going to offer unabridged criticism, at least make it intelligent instead of being a broken record saying that meaningful dodging doesn't exist, when it clearly does. That's not a topic of debate. Darkside does not have a shockwave special. You aren't aware of simple knowledge like that? Four vehicles have shockwaves, all of which have different attributes and can be dodged.

If you're concerned about vehicles being watered-down, you must have been up in arms that Axel didn't have its grossly overpowered damage mitigation and wasn't an untouchable god. Some watering down is bad, and some is also positive and is nesecarily to balance a game, so using 'watered down' as a blanket term is very misinformed, not to mention your lack of awareness of how much technique is involved in playing an effective Darkside in either game.

The purpose of this thread is not to rag on about the flaws of the game. I know you have nothing to contribute to this thread since you can't handle dissenting views and continually deny cold hard evidence. Unfortunately, your opinions don't become the truth simply because that's what you set your username as. If you have something new to say, have at it. If all you have to offer is regurgitated denialism, save our time and take my prior advice to do something with your life you can actually be proud of.


Come on Muddeh, you can't dodge a shockwave.  That is exactly why Truth says you don't even get what we're talking about.

Axel and Shadow have shockwaves in TMB.  You can't dodge them.  Even we admit that.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Muddeh on 04/09/17 at 03:34:17

Malefactor wrote on 04/09/17 at 03:16:50:
you can't dodge a shockwave

You can jump shockwaves.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Mr.DooM on 04/09/17 at 03:57:06
When do you usually have these lobbies up?

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Malefactor on 04/09/17 at 04:03:04

Muddeh wrote on 04/09/17 at 03:34:17:
You can jump shockwaves.


Do they travel that slow? Seems like you'd have to jump just hoping they used it. Not that you could really see it and then jump.

Post a picture if you can.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Mr.DooM on 04/09/17 at 04:05:40

Malefactor wrote on 04/09/17 at 04:03:04:
Do they travel that slow? Seems like you'd have to jump just hoping they used it. Not that you could really see it and then jump.

Post a picture if you can.


You can hear them charging.
You can see them charging.
You can expect them to be coming (map)

And if you want to see how fast they travel...well...
My picture?

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by The Truth on 04/09/17 at 04:23:09
Oh, please forgive me Muddeh! I forgot you were darkside in one match since the video thumbnail is covering the car with an explosion. Still doesn't change the fact that many cars are all sharing a few specials.

No one EVER said you couldn't dodge anything. We've said too much shit couldn't be dodged and what could be dodged couldn't be done in a consistent manner or that the few things that could be dodged wouldn't have much impact overall on how the game played.

I don't know how God's damage mitigation has anything to do with watered down specials in TMX. You are talking numbers which makes sense since we know you are all about the numbers. However I'm talking mechanics and gameplay. Darkside's special in TMX is a watered down piece of shit compared to the depth it had in TMB. I'd love to hear your input on the technique involved playing TMB darkside. I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge with all your play time.

The purpose of this thread was exactly to rag on the flaws of TMX. It is directed at TM2PC/TMBO players and you are trying to shove a shit sandwich down their throats. What response did you really think you were going to get?

Hell, maybe I'm totally wrong about dodging. You could easily prove it. Pick one video and point out everywhere with the time where you or your opponent truly dodged something. You can also point out places where you or your opponet shot something in a certain way as to not give you a chance to dodge.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Malefactor on 04/09/17 at 05:04:21

Mr.DooM wrote on 04/09/17 at 04:05:40:
You can hear them charging.
You can see them charging.
You can expect them to be coming (map)

And if you want to see how fast they travel...well...
My picture?


You do realize that's still not dodging though, right?

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Mr.DooM on 04/09/17 at 05:08:19

Malefactor wrote on 04/09/17 at 05:04:21:
You do realize that's still not dodging though, right?


Never said it is, and don't really care if it's not.
Will jumping make me avoid the damage? Yes. Then perfect.

And I replied to your questions about jumping. Dodging wasn't mentioned and so I did not mention it.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Malefactor on 04/09/17 at 05:15:56

Muddeh wrote on 04/09/17 at 02:59:02:
Darkside does not have a shockwave special. You aren't aware of simple knowledge like that? Four vehicles have shockwaves, all of which have different attributes and can be dodged.
.


You didn't? What am I missing here?

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Mr.DooM on 04/09/17 at 05:17:53

Malefactor wrote on 04/09/17 at 05:15:56:
You didn't? What am I missing here?


Ummm...

I'm not Muddy...

Hello? Read the name?

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Malefactor on 04/09/17 at 05:30:58

Mr.DooM wrote on 04/09/17 at 05:17:53:
Ummm...

I'm not Muddy...

Hello? Read the name?


Sorry, playing TMBO, and admittedly didn't care enough to dig too deep.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Mr.DooM on 04/09/17 at 05:37:16

Malefactor wrote on 04/09/17 at 05:30:58:
Sorry, playing TMBO, and admittedly didn't care enough to dig too deep.


Hahahahah

Alright. Have fun, man.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Muddeh on 04/09/17 at 09:36:21

Malefactor wrote on 04/09/17 at 04:03:04:
Do they travel that slow? Seems like you'd have to jump just hoping they used it. Not that you could really see it and then jump.

Post a picture if you can.

9:33 in the Kamikaze video. There are other examples in the videos, watch them. I'm not going through forty minutes of footage to point every one of them out. Clearly The Truth didn't even watch since he didn't even know the vehicle in the fourth one, so this is a great opportunity to prove you're less of a dunce than he is!

If a player is in range, doesn't receive damage and a red X doesn't appear to show they shielded, nine times out of ten they jumped it. As Doom stated, you can see all of them charging (Axel and Warthog's are especially obvious), you can hear Axel and Warthog's charging, you can hear the shockwave coming and even see Warhog's shockwave on the radar.


The Truth wrote on 04/09/17 at 04:23:09:
No one EVER said you couldn't dodge anything.

And when did I say that you said that? I don't omit the reference of deliberate dodging. You know that. Quit looking like a moron on purpose.


The Truth wrote on 04/09/17 at 04:23:09:
However I'm talking mechanics and gameplay.

Axel's damage mitigation isn't a number, because it doesn't exist to begin with in TM 2012. This might come as a surprise to you, but it has no mitigation in TM 2012. It's not a matter of numbers. It's an entire asset of the vehicle that was removed.

Oh, and at least in TM 2012 you don't get free DD for having attempted a Darkside slam and missing, not to mention the unexplained RNG damage bonuses. At the same time, it would have been nice if TM 2012's Darkside came with a T-Slide and aerial slam bonus. It's give and take between the two versions of the vehicle.


Mr.DooM wrote on 04/09/17 at 05:17:53:
Ummm...

I'm not Muddy...

Hello? Read the name?

Don't worry. We've already established that Malefactor and The Truth are borderline illiterate. They're a good laugh at least. Gotta have some entertainment around these parts. :)


Mr.DooM wrote on 04/09/17 at 03:57:06:
When do you usually have these lobbies up?

Most of the times we play these rules, we do so later in the night after a regular lobby has thinned out a bit. It's a bit awkward to suggest a rules change when we already got a lobby with the number players being in the double digits, especially due to some struggles with the language barrier. We can definitely set up more lobbies specifically for these types of matches when we know we've got a group wanting to play by these rules.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by The Truth on 04/09/17 at 11:22:14
What in the hell are you talking about? You just go off all over the place. You said "you must have been up in arms that Axel didn't have its grossly overpowered damage mitigation". That damage mitigation is just numbers and has nothing to do with how unique the special is or functions. Once again we are talking mechanics and uniqueness here, not numbers. Get numbers out of your head already. Axel is one of the few cars they actually improved on in TMX. However once again he shares specials with other cars.


Muddeh wrote on 04/09/17 at 09:36:21:
Oh, and at least in TM 2012 you don't get free DD for having attempted a Darkside slam and missing, not to mention the unexplained RNG damage bonuses. At the same time, it would have been nice if TM 2012's Darkside came with a T-Slide and aerial slam bonus. It's give and take between the two versions of the vehicle.


No, you get free damage from everything else instead. Wind damage gives a low amount of damage. They gave her wind damage to balance it out. It is kind of hilarious to see you try and use that as a negative. I don't blame you though when you have absolutely nothing you can say. TMX darkside is a straight shot head on ram. Using and connecting with the special doesn't even feel as good as TMB darkside. TMB darkside has head on and tslide. Then reverse head on and tslide. Then airborne bonuses on top of that. Then you can even use it defensively since dodging plays a big role in TMBO. You can argue they are even or TMX version is better if you want to continue your streak of looking like a moron.

Now are you going to post the breakdown of where dodging and firing certain ways to prevent dodging happens in one of your vids? If you don't want to then that is ok. You could back up what you are saying for once. After all you are the jackass that made this thread in attempt to say we are wrong and need to come play again.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Muddeh on 04/09/17 at 13:38:12
The 'mechanics' of Darkside you mention all equate to numbers and bonuses, that's the point. If you're going to get up in arms about things like the damage mitigation not being present for Darkside, you would need to apply the same term to the damage mitigation not being present for Axel as well. That flew over your head I guess. Point is, arbitrarily calling a vehicle watered down for lacking attributes it previously had is misguided if such attributes worked against skillful play in the first place.

Considering your opinion of how a Darkside slam felt came from the first month when it wasn't even publicly known that using the sixaxis dramatically increased the speed of the ram, your opinion on how the vehicle 'feels' means nothing. People cried for Darkside to be buffed for months, or for it to be easier to deal damage with the special because it simply didn't feel right to them. Thank goodness it never was altered.

I'm not going to spoonfeed you the instances of dodging when they're right there in the video. You already showed you could even be bothered to actually be on topic since you didn't even know what vehicles were even used in the videos, and simply posted to start shit. Nobody gives half a damn if you were to come back and play the game either. Are you really so self-centred that you think this is somehow a plea for you to play? Though, it would save a lot of time if you were just gain a short bit of experience and whoop me and other players as you claim you could. That would actually shut me up, since I actually live in a fact-based reality. You can continue having fun living in your safe space of how you perceived the game in 2012, versus how it actually plays in modern day though.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by The Truth on 04/09/17 at 18:25:47
Except it doesn't equate to numbers you gigantic moron. Her TMB special clearly has more depth in how you can use the special. To get those bonuses you have to use the special in different skillful ways. You don't do anything with TMB axel, you get damage mitigation whenever you use roller ball special. If you use TMB darkside's special defensively, it doesn't auto dodge for you. Take away damage mitigation from TMB axel's special and you still use it the same.

Figures you aren't going to back up your claims of dodging like a little bitch. I want your dumb ass to point out were YOU think dodging occurs because you are counting when people miss and go behind cover. The dodging that actually takes place is no where on the level of dodging in TMBO and the impact it has on the game.

If you don't give a half damn if I come back and play then who the hell is this thread for? Is there some other TM2PC/TMBO invisible posters around here?

The game is majority perceived as a dumbed down spamfest among people who's first online TM experience wasn't TMX or TMHO. That is from 2012 until the end of time.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Malefactor on 04/09/17 at 19:46:43

Muddeh wrote on 04/09/17 at 09:36:21:
9:33 in the Kamikaze video. There are other examples in the videos, watch them. I'm not going through forty minutes of footage to point every one of them out. Clearly The Truth didn't even watch since he didn't even know the vehicle in the fourth one, so this is a great opportunity to prove you're less of a dunce than he is!

If a player is in range, doesn't receive damage and a red X doesn't appear to show they shielded, nine times out of ten they jumped it. As Doom stated, you can see all of them charging (Axel and Warthog's are especially obvious), you can hear Axel and Warthog's charging, you can hear the shockwave coming and even see Warhog's shockwave on the radar ....
Axel's damage mitigation isn't a number, because it doesn't exist to begin with in TM 2012. This might come as a surprise to you, but it has no mitigation in TM 2012. Itter of numbers. It's an entire asset of the vehicle that was removed..


I already knew that Axel didn't have damanage mitigation.  When we were talking to the developers we imported them not to have it this time, and thankfully, that was one area they actually listened.

I actually think that the jump of the shockwave was pretty cool.  That's the first time you've shown me something in TM:2012 that I've been impressed with.  I wish the Axel in TMB had a shockwave that was jumpable, and travelled so slow.

Title: Re: TM 2012, Minus Auto-Aim
Post by Luis on 04/10/17 at 00:33:53
Axel's special was never a true shockwave until TMPS3. His special in all of the previous games was an all direction attack like an explosion. It sucks that it took them that long to get it right.

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