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Message started by HockeyGuy0k on 02/02/17 at 04:28:46

Title: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by HockeyGuy0k on 02/02/17 at 04:28:46
I bought the game again after selling my original copy about a month into owning it in 2012 because I was so disappointed in the game. I wanted to give the game another chance now that I haven't played it for a few years to see if I had a different opinion on the game. I am actually pleasantly surprised in a lot of ways and still are upset at a few things.

First THE BAD and the main reason for my post ---

- This game is just way to fast paced, fast speedy cars feel so unbelievably fast that they are impossible to control. Pretty much every good car in my opinion is of the medium speed or slow speed variety. if they slowed down the game for all cars to say 75% of current speed I feel it would benefit the game more than any other single move possibly could.

--- The cars in general seem like they kind of all blend together, with the lack of unique characters for each individual car and extremely similar specials for the majority of cars no car really jumps out to me (usually every TM game I fall in love with a car and exclusively play that car).

--- The decision to have Talon in the game still saddens my heart for this game

--- A lot of the maps feel small (I think the cars being so fast really adds to this issue)

THE GOOD!!!! ---

--- The gameplay is fun and extremely addicting! The weapons feel tight and I like the idea of sidearms (although some balancing here is obviously needed)

--- The competition is fierce and if you are not on your game it is easy to lose to the game (although I wish the AI would fight eachother as well)

--- Good music

--- A variety of different maps which I like, each map feels unique and has it's own personality


Anyways those are my thoughts, just wanted to say if they tweaked a few things in the game I believe it could make for a much more enjoyable game, although  I do appreciate the game for what it is (even if I can't play 2 or 3 cars because they are much to fast)

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by HockeyGuy0k on 02/02/17 at 22:06:13
Just played it again and have a few more notes.

I wish that the enemies/allies names were not such a bright green/red and not so big so that I could actually see the level better. I also wish the enemies/allies health bar was more prominent so I could see better when enemies are low on health.

Just played Juggernaut for the first time and have no idea who thought that this could possibly be a good idea for this game. He is so bland to play and slow and I found myself getting stuck with him numerous times.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/03/17 at 08:52:34
Not to be an ass but the "negatives" you listed for the game are pretty weak, the size of the levels is related to the ammount of detail put in them (which is just perfect) and the speed of the fast cars is just fine. Can take a bit of time to get used to it though.

I'm indifferent to Talon being in the game. I do agree with Juggernaut though, vehicle is cumbersome and extremely unwieldly, gets stuck easily and is just Darkside with a  fucking trailer. Not the most original vehicle ever.

The faction shit is a con but is not enough to ruin the game for me. I remember first time i've played the game i disliked the stats for some of the vehicles, like c'mon, Crimson Fury and Roadkill needed more armor.


Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/03/17 at 13:19:35
TM 2012 the fastest-paced game in the series, for sure. That's definitely not a downside in my eyes though. It does dramatically increase the learning curve for playing the lightweights and make the mid-heavies seem all the more appealing with their straightforward primary specials. But just like previous TM games, skill drastically supersedes vehicle choice. You won't be able to play at the same level as pros by choosing a certain vehicle, nor will a certain vehicle drastically handicap you if you're capable of playing with it.

Even though Crimson Fury is largely considered the weakest vehicle in TDM largely due to having one of the most ineffective specials in the game, the best players can absolutely destroy heavies with it. Nevermind the fact that some weapons in the game are undodgeable, because a skilled CF will make it an extreme challenge to even get a reticle lock on. The way that competitive TDM is structured also really heightens the pace of game, which makes it all seem that much faster.

Talon should have never been in the game, if just because it slows down that fast pace. It's an extremely defensive vehicle by nature. It survives by being able to position itself out of range of attacks and only needs to expose itself to enemies that don't have the potential to fight back, be it a lack of health, energy or inventory. It's a bitch way to play an TM game, which is why it's never used competitively. Jugg is also a letdown because it relies on gimmicks like absorb shield killstreaks and the immensely overpowered turret, which is what it's also outlawed from skillful play.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by HockeyGuy0k on 02/05/17 at 16:40:17
A few other notes while I am thinking about this game: does anyone else find the maps extremely depressing? It seems like every maps primary colors are brown, dark brown, light brown, grey and black. I think the happiest map in the game is Sunsprings which is basically a hazy yellow. Would it kill Jaffe to have a map or two that is in a place with lush grass and blue skies?

I also wish it was easier to tell what is destructible and what is not destructible when driving around in the environment.

The game also relies way to much on special weapons and ramming damage. A good game should have you learn to master all weapons in the game but weapons are often so scarce you have to rely simply on ramming damage/special weapons which recharge to fast.

My last complaint is that turbo boost is way to abundant. Turbo should have to be thought about before using due to scarcity and when to best use it due to not having enough, as it is I can turbo for over a minute straight with no downside whatsoever, in the majority of games I have actually played seriously I just used the turbo constantly unless there was an area I was trying to navigate more carefully.

@The Deadite --- I agree that the levels are extremely detailed but I still find a lot of them small (not in size but in feel). What I mean by this is that the cars are so ridiculously fast it makes the maps feel a lot smaller than they actually are, it's also extremely difficult to get to many areas because the cars are so fast and difficult to handle. My main knock on Talon being in the game is that it is a car combat game with a helicopter in it. He changes every map's layout and completely changes the way the game is played for vehicles. I personally prefer doing away with the lock on system but it would be impossible to not have a lock on system due to talon being in the game.

@Muddeh --- I think it being such a fast paced game is a downside. A good game gives the player enough time that they can make a fast decisions and be rewarded or punished based upon their decisions, this game happens so fast that it just feels like a big clusterf*ck of missles and machine guns. Try doing the Diablo pass race with Mr Grimm and you will know exactly what I mean, it doesn't feel like you as a player have much of an outcome on good or bad things happening because it all happens so fast and you constantly feel disoriented. I would disagree with your skill/vehicle choice statement. I find 5 of the cars absolutely unplayable (crimson fury, mr grimm, death warrant, juggernaught, kamikazee) on the majority of maps.I'm sure the best players in the world can play any one of those cars just fine but when the average player finds half of the cars in the game unplayable you have a problem.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Luis on 02/05/17 at 19:34:55
The pro players have no problem with the fast pace of the game. You just need to get better. It's the only solution or give up on the game.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by HockeyGuy0k on 02/05/17 at 21:00:25

Luis wrote on 02/05/17 at 19:34:55:
The pro players have no problem with the fast pace of the game. You just need to get better. It's the only solution or give up on the game.


Let me put it this way, I have played every other Twisted Metal game ever made and I have never had an issue with handling any one vehicle. In this game I can't handle 5 of the vehicles.

I know I probably sound really whiny about the game and all but it's because I just know it could have been so good and I love the series so much. I just feel like it had so much potential and I would like to identify the reasons that the game missed the mark in my opinion so that hopefully future games avoid the same mistakes.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 02/05/17 at 21:51:59

HockeyGuy0k wrote on 02/05/17 at 16:40:17:
I think it being such a fast paced game is a downside. A good game gives the player enough time that they can make a fast decisions and be rewarded or punished based upon their decisions, this game happens so fast that it just feels like a big clusterf*ck of missles and machine guns.


Just so you know, you are 100% spot on with this. It is one of the main reasons almost everyone that played TM2PC/TMBO despised TMX and why there is such little activity on TMA.

If you are looking for a game where you need to make fast decisions and be rewarded or punished based upon the decisions with no clusterfuck of missles and machine guns then TMBO is your only TM option at this point in time.

As an example in TMBO weapons don't move at the speed of light. There is also audio depth where you'll hear a weapon being fired and it traveling to you. This is where you make decisions to maneuver your car in a way to dodge it or get hit by it. This then leads to people having to get better and take good shots or setting up combos to make it harder to dodge.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/06/17 at 00:50:40

HockeyGuy0k wrote on 02/05/17 at 16:40:17:
A few other notes while I am thinking about this game: does anyone else find the maps extremely depressing? It seems like every maps primary colors are brown, dark brown, light brown, grey and black. I think the happiest map in the game is Sunsprings which is basically a hazy yellow. Would it kill Jaffe to have a map or two that is in a place with lush grass and blue skies? 

Personally, i think the level design is on point including the color palette. The art direction is it's own beast,  stuck between Black and TM2, not too dark or too colorful. Metro Square and Diablo Pass are fairly colorful though.


HockeyGuy0k wrote on 02/05/17 at 16:40:17:
The game also relies way to much on special weapons and ramming damage. A good game should have you learn to master all weapons in the game but weapons are often so scarce you have to rely simply on ramming damage/special weapons which recharge to fast.

Not really, some vehicles are not made for ramming , weapon pick ups are as abundant as they always were... don't really want to sound like a elitist fanboy but...."git gud"
Find a vehicle that suits your playstyle and master that shit.


HockeyGuy0k wrote on 02/05/17 at 16:40:17:
... but when the average player finds half of the cars in the game unplayable you have a problem.

I kinda dig the game being so unforgiving, can take a bit of time to fully master but the controls are so smooth is fun to try. Not gonna pretend i know how tow drive every vehicle but Twisted Metal was never a casual friendly IP, it was always a hair pulling series.
I find this game more forgiving that Black, he difficulty on that game  doesn't fare that well and the controls are a bit too muddy to compensate for it IMO.

And i bet this forum is pretty dead because Sony did an awful job in the publicity department of TMX, not because old time fans despised the game. They failed attracting newcomers and reigniting interest on the series from the public.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/06/17 at 01:24:17

HockeyGuy0k wrote on 02/05/17 at 16:40:17:
A few other notes while I am thinking about this game: does anyone else find the maps extremely depressing?

I presume you would share the same criticism towards TMB, if not to a greater extent. I can't say I would take issue with a bit more creativity with the themes of the maps seeing that Diesel and Watkyn's feel relatively similar, but it's a pretty minimal thing to knock the game on, plus Thrills & Spills is definitely a vibrant map. I wouldn't expect a modern Twisted Metal game to be all sunshine and rainbows, after all.


HockeyGuy0k wrote on 02/05/17 at 16:40:17:
The game also relies way to much on special weapons and ramming damage. A good game should have you learn to master all weapons in the game but weapons are often so scarce you have to rely simply on ramming damage/special weapons which recharge to fast.

I gotta disagree with you there. I really enjoy the fact that ramming has such an impact, à la TM2. If you get rammed by an ice cream truck while driving a motorcycle, it sure as hell should hurt. It makes the game less forgiving but adds a ton of depth to close quarters combat and combos, especially with the turbo dash existing in this game. And honestly, there isn't a Twisted Metal game where the specials aren't the most defining element to each vehicle. You need to be aware of each vehicle and their specials when both playing as and fighting against them, and they should be powerful. If the specials aren't all that powerful, it dilutes the variation across the vehicle roster significantly.

As well, if you make use of turbo dash (which you should in the majority of vehicles) you'll burn through turbo way faster, and it's a much more valuable resource on the smaller maps. I also think the density of weapons is fine, and if you're finding yourself only using your special and not picking up other weapons, you should either take note of the weapon layout or take more time to run weapons routes instead of looking for combat. Map control is a massive part of any TM game, especially online. I'd also argue there's way more weapons out in the open in TM 2012 than in any previous Twisted Metal. If you play a map like Moscow from TM2 or Drive-In Movie from TMB you'll definitely realize how limited the critical resources/weapons are in the smaller maps of those games.


HockeyGuy0k wrote on 02/05/17 at 16:40:17:
@Muddeh --- I think it being such a fast paced game is a downside. A good game gives the player enough time that they can make a fast decisions and be rewarded or punished based upon their decisions, this game happens so fast that it just feels like a big clusterf*ck of missles and machine guns. Try doing the Diablo pass race with Mr Grimm and you will know exactly what I mean, it doesn't feel like you as a player have much of an outcome on good or bad things happening because it all happens so fast and you constantly feel disoriented. I would disagree with your skill/vehicle choice statement. I find 5 of the cars absolutely unplayable (crimson fury, mr grimm, death warrant, juggernaught, kamikazee) on the majority of maps.I'm sure the best players in the world can play any one of those cars just fine but when the average player finds half of the cars in the game unplayable you have a problem.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the online at all or just the single player, but it sounds to me simply like you haven't played enough to recognize what you're being hit with and how opponents are besting you. I can see your perspective though because the learning curve is steep. I'm a bit biased since I played since the beta when everyone playing online had also been fresh to the game, and these days the learning curve is much steeper for those jumping into the online. I had also played a few weeks purely online before tackling the single player, so I may not have struggled with the story the same way you might have. But just because you find the game difficult having just played for a short time, that doesn't mean it should be stripped down.

Regarding the vehicles, I can understand your frustration having limited playtime and choosing the vehicles that require more driving skill, but your perception of what's supposedly unplayable does not reflect the reality of the game's balance. Juggernaut is absurdly overpowered. Death Warrant is one of the stronger vehicles in the roster. Kamikaze and Reaper have their strengths much more invested in their specials, but are strong as well. The only vehicle that's undeniably weak is Crimson Fury, but it's still far from being outright unplayable. It's simply the most difficult and requires more driving skill and knowledge of the map layouts to be used effectively.

As for the speed of vehicles, I would much prefer a game with a steeper learning curve with faster lightweights that have more sensitive controls than one that has a cap on skill in exchange for more casual appeal. Twisted Metal has always been a complex series that requires use of the entire controller, and that's not going to change. The formula for a well-balanced vehicle combat game isn't that difficult, but devs constantly toss in gimmicks to make the game feel more casual that constantly messes that balance up.

Trying to appeal to casual gamers and failing to embrace the brilliant depth of the vehicle combat genre has consistently bogged the series down. The fact that ESP tried to balance out the challenge of driving with a number of easier weapons that are very difficult/impossible to dodge is what made the game so unfun to veterans of the series, such that it struggled to appeal to both casual and hardcore gamers at launch.

In previous TMs even if you're weren't aware you're being fired at, you'd still avoid a lot of the AI's attacks by pure fluke based on the angle you're driving at in contrast to the direction of their fire. The same also occurs in TM2012 with the weapons that are avoidable, but the number of undodgeable weapons upsets that and often make you feel helpless to their attacks. The auto-aim spam was especially an issue in the early months online where it was all you needed to play well since people hadn't developed their skills with manual and skill-based attacks to counter it at the time.

I wouldn't want to see the actual pace of the game slowed down though, because in this game driving matters more than in any other. The slower the game is, the more unbalanced it will be in the heavy vehicles' favour. If you removed even just a couple of the undodgeable weapons, I could guarantee you that the lightweights would be the dominant vehicles in TM 2012 for experienced players.

We should strive to achieve a balance where the heavies are the most friendly vehicles for newcomers of the game to play since they're slower and heavily armoured, but also allow players to find success with the "higher risk, higher reward" vehicles (i.e. lightweights) that may not be as suitable to play until you get some seat time, but are balanced nontheless. Making the game slower isn't the answer, but nerfing the speed and homing of weapons, plus allowing people to adjust the sensitivity of their steering input (for those who find the lightweights too hypersensitive) would go a long ways to making the chaos feel more controlled.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/07/17 at 03:12:09
Truth is correct that by and large the vast majority of TMA hated/hates this game and it probably killed the series for reasons too numerous to name.

However, calling it the fastest paced Twisted Metal is a bit of a joke.  The WEAPONS are the fastest in any Twisted Metal game.  The cars themselves are actually a bit slower.

Twisted Metal: Black's weapons are slower than TM:2012's but its cars are faster.  This is one of the reasons in TMB you have far more defensive options because your cars maneuverability is able to outmaneuver a weapon.

Pretty much every hardcore veteran of the series that experienced all online versions agreed with your assessment that this game is a bit of a clusterfuck with far less defensive depth than previous additions.  Muddeh is a hardcore fan of the new game, he adores what is there, and so he defends it tooth and nail, but as you listen to him you need to be aware that he never spent any time at all on the previous online versions.  I would have enjoyed this game too if I'd never played the previous versions AND if I was okay with a buggy as hell network shit fest.

However, the simple unavoidable truth is if you want a Twisted Metal with a wide range of defensive tactics this is not and never will be the one to choose. 

Finally, Sony did a terrific job marketing this game.  The original release had all sorts of people talking about it.  Unfortunately, you can spend millions to market a burned hamburger but if it's a carcinogenic waste it doesn't matter, you're wasting your money.  Over a year into the game's original release it was still buggy as hell.  Five months into its release it would take upwards of an hour for people to get in game rooms. 

Sony wisely realized that this game was ruining their reputation.  I can't fault them for bailing on it.  You are a moron if you do.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/07/17 at 05:36:44

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 03:12:09:
Finally, Sony did a terrific job marketing this game.  The original release had all sorts of people talking about it.  Unfortunately, you can spend millions to market a burned hamburger but if it's a carcinogenic waste it doesn't matter, you're wasting your money.  Over a year into the game's original release it was still buggy as hell.  Five months into its release it would take upwards of an hour for people to get in game rooms. 

Sony wisely realized that this game was ruining their reputation.  I can't fault them for bailing on it.  You are a moron if you do.

I can't even begin to process this post...
Terrific job marketing this game?
TM12 was ruining Sony's reputation?
You are a moron if you blame Sony for bailing on the game?

You gotta be baiting with those statements.

Sure the online portion is important and it was broken as fuck but it doesn't make up for the entirety of the experience, TM12 is far from being a perfect entry on the series but you exagerating it's flaws way too much.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/07/17 at 10:29:50

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 03:12:09:
However, calling it the fastest paced Twisted Metal is a bit of a joke.  The WEAPONS are the fastest in any Twisted Metal game.  The cars themselves are actually a bit slower.

I agree that the vehicles themselves aren't fundamentally faster, especially when you factor in not just top speed, but acceleration as well. In fact, the top speeds for the majority of the vehicles are remarkably similar, but their varying acceleration sets them apart. I could understand that because the lightweights' controls are so sensitive and the fact that they're much more prone to getting staggered and flipped around than in any previous game, it can make those vehicles feel much faster and more difficult to control for a novice player.

TM 2012 is the fastest-paced game in the series. At the absolute least, it's faster-paced than TMBO (which isn't a criticism, but merely an assertion) and there's a number of factors that make TM 2012 considerably more fast-paced. The most notable thing that speeds up the game is the fact that pickup respawns are set on a timer, rather than being RNG. It creates a turf war to control certain areas of map for access to the stronger pickups. The fact that health also regenerates on a three minute timer from when it is last picked up not only makes health viable in team games, but also forces more confrontations and for you to fight more often with less liberty to take time to stock your inventory with strong pickups without being pressured by opponents in the vicinity.

The density of pickups in the maps also increases the pace of the game because less time needs to be spent out of combat driving weapon routes, and less often are there stalemates because you and your opponent have run out of weapons. The faster regeneration rates of specials (at least in comparison to TMBO) also makes it so that your inventory is less often empty. The abundance of pickups doesn't diminish the fight for map control I mentioned earlier though. It's rarely difficult to load up with garbage weapons, but you need to fight to keep the stronger weapons with either staggering abilities or higher damage output in your team's possession, or else they'll be used against you. As well, there are additional methods to attack beyond use of just your standard inventory that aren't prevalent/existent in TMBO, such as ramming and absorption shield.

As well, the inclusion of perks such as killstreaks place a lot of stock in not just passively dealing what we call "spread damage" from a distance, but dealing "concentrated damage" in CQC and finishing kills. Killstreaks in of themselves allow players to engage other players more aggressively with the energy and turbo refills, as well as the duplicating inventory if you manage to get as high as four kills. It encourages a streaking player to play more aggressively to feed their streak and get the most out of the perks, and puts pressure on the opposing team to recognize that player is streaking and attempt to shut them down.

The mercy bonuses also make it that much more important to finish kills so that those opponents aren't able to hang back and wait for their teammates to take care of you (assuming they've managed to put a few dents in you as well), then regain health from your flaming driver. At the same time, you need to play smart and not be lured by a weaken player into a scenario where you're away from your team and outnumbered. This all stresses the importance of teamplay, synchronizing in efforts of map control and combat, and playing at such a pace that the other team doesn't get the upper hand, ensuring you keep in mind the underlying objectives beyond just murdering your opponents.


Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 03:12:09:
Muddeh is a hardcore fan of the new game, he adores what is there, and so he defends it tooth and nail, but as you listen to him you need to be aware that he never spent any time at all on the previous online versions.  I would have enjoyed this game too if I'd never played the previous versions AND if I was okay with a buggy as hell network shit fest.

I consider myself less of a fan of TM 2012, and more a fan of the series in general. I refute the idea that I should be considered any less of a fan, or less relevant in the voice of the community because I didn't abandon the game in the early months. I'll be honest that I don't consider anybody on this forum besides Luis, and those who may be registered and play the game competitively but avoid the swamping negativity on TMA, to have a relevant opinion on TM 2012 in its current state. Yes, I haven't played a previous online TM within recent years, but neither have you played TM 2012 in recent years either.

Since the TMBO revival server went up, I hadn't felt compelled to play primarily because I haven't felt welcome in the community. I would want to be involved in things like the Skype calls while playing since the vocal element adds a lot to the game, especially with teamplay, but figured I'm likely an inside joke already for my opinions on TM 2012. Nonetheless, I've spent many dozens of hours watching Darkscorious' footage. I greatly appreciate TMBO, and believe I display that I am knowledgeable of the game (certainly do correct me and point out anything I've said of TMBO that has been inaccurate). I also do intend to join in playing TMBO soon.

Years have passed now, and my views of TM 2012 have matured. I always had a concept of what was balanced and what was cheap and believed it was a flawed game on many counts, but I didn't understand the extreme disdain from TMA towards it. I understand far better now what developed in the months leading up to, and the months after released that lead so many to abandon the game. I agree it was glitchy, unbalanced, autoaim broken horseshit. However, I'm still incredibly frustrated by the constant echo chamber of hatred towards the game, because I'm a fan who cares about the series. Nobody is willing to even attempt playing in current day where the vast majority of the former problems with the game have been smoothed over, and when played with the right settings it is a strong entry to the series in its own right.

It would be like a soccer analyst feeling just as qualified to also be a hockey analyst without having knowledge in the strategies, intricacies and recent history of the league, and only knowing the basic rules and framework... and then based on that knowledge, calling one the sport they specialize in superior to the other; it's an uninformed opinion, not a fact. The two games may have the objectives but are entirely different sports, just as previous online TMs are different than TM 2012. And perhaps most importantly, how TM 2012 is played now is far different than back in the day prior to patches/tweaking and before concrete rules for competitive play were put in place.


The Deadite wrote on 02/07/17 at 05:36:44:
You gotta be baiting with those statements.

He is baiting. Sadly, he's part of the fringe but vocal minority that hated the most recent titles to such an extent that he wouldn't support the development of a future Twisted Metal, and has stated it multiple times.


Malefactor wrote on 07/08/16 at 04:56:28:
Well, so the answer for me is since I probably WOULD NOT buy a Twisted Metal made by the "original" team as it is now defined, it would take something like another team and amazing reviews to make me buy it.

It's safe to say that this doesn't represent the majority opinion of both casual and hardcore fans of the series. We want a new Twisted Metal. We want it done right. While it's important to highlight the flaws of previous TM games, there's no use living in the past and entirely denying anything positive that came out of TM 2012. If its own community doesn't support the series. We need more fans to show their support, and for the Twisted Metal community to not be so underground. Although I'm not involved, I'm sure TMA mostly socializes through IMs rather than the forums these days much as the frequent players of TM 2012 do. I was a tad late to the party, but in recent years I've been doing my part to be involved in the public sphere, between posting videos and lurking around these parts. Harping on the faults and justifying Sony to distance itself from the brand will get us nowhere. It will only cause us to see the prospect of a new Twisted Metal or projects like MotorGun slip through our fingers.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/07/17 at 18:09:56
Perhaps it's baiting a bit, but more or less just not being diplomatic about it.  It's common fan base (of any game mind you) to blame the publisher as if in every scenario it's the publisher's fault.  Fact is sometimes it's the game's developer.  Sony made a business decision that made sense.  You shouldn't throw advertising money behind a broken product, and any game that struggles on such an epic level months out of the gate is clearly broken. It's not just that the network code was unworkable FOR A GAME THAT WAS MARKETED AS ONLINE FOCUS (which by default means I'm not exaggerating anything at all when I complain about its flaws) but there are numerous game breaking problems besides this.  You are able to ignore them only because you love the series so much.

Also, Muddeh, I'm not saying you're less of a fan, I'm just saying you're analysis is largely empty.  You rarely have any idea about what you're talking about.

Case in point.  In the above you point out that TM:2012's health and weapons were on a timer.

Same is true of TMBO.  So . . . I've pointed out on numerous occasions (and so has The Truth mind you) how this kind of thing, which you do on a regular basis, just makes you look clueless.  Then when people try to engage with you you ignore these moments of blatant logical problems where your inexperience is brought out and instead plaster yet more walls of text for us to deal with.

You've become a TM:2012 apologist on this board.  Clearly that's the role you want to be, so be it, but there's never any real substance to it.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/07/17 at 19:13:58

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 18:09:56:
...It's common fan base (of any game mind you) to blame the publisher as if in every scenario it's the publisher's fault.  Fact is sometimes it's the game's developer.  Sony made a business decision that made sense.  You shouldn't throw advertising money behind a broken product, and any game that struggles on such an epic level months out of the gate is clearly broken. It's not just that the network code was unworkable FOR A GAME THAT WAS MARKETED AS ONLINE FOCUS (which by default means I'm not exaggerating anything at all when I complain about its flaws) but there are numerous game breaking problems besides this....
Hey anyone remembers when the games most important part was the SP portion?
I do, that was cool.

And yes you are blowing this out of proportion to accommodate your self imposed facts (TM12 being marketed as an online focus game), i've played the shit out of this game and found very few glitches, less alone game breaking ones... Nevermind i'm not putting the online and singleplayer on the same bag.

i can understand people don't liking the game but calling it a cancerous piece of shit is just too much, game negatives don't surpass it's pros by that much of a margin.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/07/17 at 19:27:04

The Deadite wrote on 02/07/17 at 19:13:58:
Hey anyone remembers when the games most important part was the SP portion?
I do, that was cool.

And yes you are blowing this out of proportion to accommodate your self imposed facts (TM12 being marketed as an online focus game), i've played the shit out of this game and found very few glitches, less alone game breaking ones... Nevermind i'm not putting the online and singleplayer on the same bag.

i can understand people don't liking the game but calling it a cancerous piece of shit is just too much, game negatives don't surpass it's pros by that much of a margin.


How was me calling it marketed as an online multiplayer game a self imposed fact?

It was stated numerous times by Jaffe, by the team (when I played it at their demo station they mentioned it countless times), the numerous magazine articles . . .

I'm not the one using alternative facts here.  That is you.  The single player was tacked on last minute.  It never would have had a single player component when the game was first conceived because they believed multiplayer was where the real strength of Twisted Metal lies (a belief I agree with, but I don't think the team knew how to pull it off).

You like it.  Great.  Clearly your quality standards for a Twisted Metal are far below mine.  The good news is if there is ever another one you'll probably like it.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/07/17 at 21:14:48

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 19:27:04:
The single player was tacked on last minute.  It never would have had a single player component when the game was first conceived because they believed multiplayer was where the real strength of Twisted Metal lies (a belief I agree with, but I don't think the team knew how to pull it off).
how was the singleplayer tacked on last minute?
It has extensive boss fights, a lot of cutscenes mixing CGI and live actors (and more were partially filmed but scrapped at the last minute) and some game modes exclusive only to SP.


Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 19:27:04:
You like it.  Great.  Clearly your quality standards for a Twisted Metal are far below mine...
Well if liking this game is having low standards then sure, i'm easily pleased why not. Proud of liking the game despite it's flaws.


Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 19:27:04:
...The good news is if there is ever another one you'll probably like it.
Yeah i will, hopefully that happens and i can be arguing with you about the game's quality yet again.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/07/17 at 21:35:13

The Deadite wrote on 02/07/17 at 21:14:48:
how was the singleplayer tacked on last minute?
It has extensive boss fights, a lot of cutscenes mixing CGI and live actors (and more were partially filmed but scrapped at the last minute) and some game modes exclusive only to SP.


Last minute means towards the twilight of the game's design.  it wasn't originally intended.

It's also evidenced by how badly done the single player is.  It has the most shallow of all of the Twisted Metal game's AI.  Jaffe said an unfortunate aspect of Black was how hard and difficult it was, and at times, cheap, but then 2012's AI was straight up off the map cheap.

In single player the computer can often one hit kill you with the sniper EVEN WITHOUT CHARGING IT. Game modes are implemented with little thought for balance.  The most obvious is the always maligned races.  In previous Twisteds, any car could beat any level, but in this version, you simply HAVE to be the speedy cars in order to pass the races.  Furthermore, the races often come down to pure luck.  Did everything line up or not?  If they did you win the race.  If not, start again.

Those types of bad game design are evidence of a mode that really didn't get near the time and attention it deserved, which is probably why pretty much everyone says the single player aspect of the game was forgettable.  It's evident in release reviews and numerous fan reviews even today.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16

The Deadite wrote on 02/06/17 at 00:50:40:
And i bet this forum is pretty dead because Sony did an awful job in the publicity department of TMX, not because old time fans despised the game. They failed attracting newcomers and reigniting interest on the series from the public.


It seems every so often we have a special kind of noob like you that trickles into the site. These special kind of noobs all regurgitate the same incorrect statements and appear to know it all.

I especially like that ones that join and within a month are telling us the forum is dead because sony didn't market the game enough. Here is a tip, It might be a good idea to research if you are going to comment about something you are brand new to and have no experience with. In this case going back and reading past forum threads to see why the forum is dead.

For the record sony did what marketing the game allowed them to do. David Jaffe praised sony and even said "sony was great to us" for the job they did. What more do you think sony should have done? Should they of made a commerical saying "hey everyone don't listen to everyone returning the game because connection/crash issues, come on down and get fucked! It is the best TM ever if it works!"

Truth of the matter is you don't need marketing to do well. Word of mouth is all you need especailly when we have this cool thing called the internet.

Twisted Metal's #1 stregth was and always will be multiplayer especailly online multiplayer. Malefactor already stated the facts above so I will not list them again. Even if the above facts didn't exist or were not true, for the majority of people ALL of the REPLAY VALUE comes from online multiplayer.


The Deadite wrote on 02/07/17 at 05:36:44:
Sure the online portion is important and it was broken as fuck

You admit the online is "important and broken as fuck" but it doesn't make up for the entirety of the experience? Glad you loved the single player and were fine with online not working right. However Since all the REPLAY VALUE for the majority of people is in online play. The "entirety of the experience" consisted of watching the "network error" screen while playing room roulette.

Calling it a "cancerous piece of shit" is an accurate statement. Cancer kills and TMX sadly killed this series. However maybe a better more politically correct statement would be "It was a lovely experience that fell short".


Muddeh wrote on 02/07/17 at 10:29:50:
He is baiting. Sadly, he's part of the fringe but vocal minority that hated the most recent titles to such an extent that he wouldn't support the development of a future Twisted Metal, and has stated it multiple times.

Muddeh we've been over this many times already. We aren't fanboys who will blindly support anything with Twisted Metal's or Sweet Tooth's name slapped on it. We supported Twisted Metal prior to TMX because they created a great foundation that enabled TM to be the best and most fun it could. From TM1 to TM2 to TMB they continued to improve on and progress forwards. TMX shit all over this and went backwards. If a new Twisted Metal ever comes and it picks up where TMB left off and improves and moves the series forward then we will support it. The reality through is is will most likely be the same experience without the network errors or a worse one and we will not support it simply because it is called Twisted Metal.

It would be great if enough of us still owned TMX and could stomach playing it for a few weeks. Just to show you nothing has changed and the game still lacks the depth of past TMs. It wouldn't take long till a group of us that haven't played the game since months after launch were taking turns winning with a group of "pros" that have been playing since launch.

I hope you do play TMBO at some point as well. I hope you really play it and don't show up for 30 mins one night jsut to claim you've played. I hope you play just enough that you come to the realization of "OH MY GOD..... I GET It NOW....".

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/07/17 at 22:49:09

The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
Muddeh . . . I hope you do play TMBO at some point as well. I hope you really play it and don't show up for 30 mins one night jsut to claim you've played. I hope you play just enough that you come to the realization of "OH MY GOD..... I GET It NOW....".


I genuinely hope the same thing.  We've had a few TM:2012 players switch over and give Black a try, and every single damn one of them has had the same, "Holy shit you weren't kidding.  This game is sooo much more complex . . ." Type of experience.

You have to give it a few months because despite the bullshit written above, after a lengthy time with TM:2012, TMBO FEELS FASTER.  Yes, the weapons are slightly slower, but that's ALL that's slower.  It takes a minute to get your sea legs for 2001's masterpiece.

Once you do though, and you realize you're playing a car combat game where you can dodge ten homing missiles in quick succession thrown at you and follow it up with a 69 point satellite drop on another opponent . . . And all without losing your default game settings . . .

Why in God's name would you ever go back?

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Spag on 02/07/17 at 23:09:47
I encourage you to play as well Muddeh. We have our disagreements on TMX but I'm not gonna try and discourage you or others from playing TMBO with us.

Play with us consistently and you'll get use to the pacing and get better as you go basically.   ;)

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/08/17 at 01:37:46

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 21:35:13:
...In previous Twisteds, any car could beat any level, but in this version, you simply HAVE to be the speedy cars in order to pass the races.  Furthermore, the races often come down to pure luck.  Did everything line up or not?  If they did you win the race.  If not, start again. 

That's how races work? You have to have the faster car?
I know TM is hardly a grounded game  but this is basic logic, did you expect to win a race against  a supercar with an ice cream truck? (To be fair, this perfectly schievable with the ridiculous Sweet Bot)
I know i'm probably in the minority but personally, i liked the TM12 races just as i liked the obstacle courses in TM:HO,  something else to do besides fighting other cars.

Sometimes the frenetic nature of the gameplay is too much for the concept of racing, i should know this because i win the races in the first try most of the times. (Diesel City is another beast though, sometimes it's jumps and tight spaces are too much)


Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 21:35:13:
Last minute means towards the twilight of the game's design.  it wasn't originally intended.

Well, allegedly  the game was delayed in order to refine the gameplay so the alternate endings/cutscenes lost priority.
Kinda the opposite of what happened in Black.


The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
It seems every so often we have a special kind of noob like you that trickles into the site. These special kind of noobs all regurgitate the same incorrect statements and appear to know it all.

Sorry i'm disrupting your echo chamber?
I know is annoying to find someone with an opposing opinion, if i'm wrong you could just link threads or whatever to prove your point . But i guess is more easy to just call me an special noob and telling me to look though god knows how many threads in this forum just to keep up.


The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
You admit the online is "important and broken as fuck" but it doesn't make up for the entirety of the experience? Glad you loved the single player and were fine with online not working right..

I've never said i'm "fine" with the multiplayer being broke. I know online adds a lot of replay value to any game, you can still be messing around with it months or years after you were done with the main campaign. Maybe the pace of the game is too much for online to work properly but is a shame how it resulted because sure it was promising.

I just find unfair how the game is called a cancer that killed the series,  like it had zero reedemable qualities. But meh, i'm getting an idea that's the consensus here, your mind is set and i know for a fact people don't change of opinion. I have my reasons to love the game and you have yours to hate it. I don't want to drag this shit.
This isn't even on topic.



Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 02/08/17 at 04:13:00

The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 01:37:46:
Sorry i'm disrupting your echo chamber?
I know is annoying to find someone with an opposing opinion, if i'm wrong you could just link threads or whatever to prove your point . But i guess is more easy to just call me an special noob and telling me to look though god knows how many threads in this forum just to keep up.


There is a difference between fact and opinion. For example If I were to say this is a twisted metal forum. That is a fact, you could argue it is something else but you just look stupid doing it.

I'm stating facts however you are arguing YOUR opinion. No matter how much you argue your opinion, you are not going to change the facts.

I will not be playing detective and linking the tons of threads from around the time before TMX released and months after.

You can put in the time and go through reading them. A better solution would be to just not comment on something you are completely ignorant on.

If I were to go join another game forum and someone said the forum is dead because the community didn't like the latest release. I would take their word on it because I have no idea since I wasn't around.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/08/17 at 04:53:36

The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 01:37:46:
That's how races work? You have to have the faster car?
I know TM is hardly a grounded game  but this is basic logic, did you expect to win a race against  a supercar with an ice cream truck? (To be fair, this perfectly schievable with the ridiculous Sweet Bot)
I know i'm probably in the minority but personally, i liked the TM12 races just as i liked the obstacle courses in TM:HO,  something else to do besides fighting other cars.

Sometimes the frenetic nature of the gameplay is too much for the concept of racing, i should know this because i win the races in the first try most of the times. (Diesel City is another beast though, sometimes it's jumps and tight spaces are too much)
Well, allegedly  the game was delayed in order to refine the gameplay so the alternate endings/cutscenes lost priority.
Kinda the opposite of what happened in Black.


You are in the minority.  Most people hated the races. YES, races usually take the fastest cars . . . which is precisely why it doens't belong in Twisted Metal.  Keep it in goddamn Gran Turismo, where it's actually done well.

Also, the gripes about "I'm sick of car combat and want to do something else" ring pretty hollow to me.  It's like someone playing Street Fighter V and saying, "I'm tired of playing this fighter, I want Ryu in a spaceship."  That's the kind of bullshit said by developers who don't have faith in their series and fans that really don't care as much about car combat as they pretend to.

That Black jab at the end was total bullshit you just made up.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/08/17 at 07:04:34
Wasn't really a jab though, David Jaffe said that they got too caught in the cutscenes/stories to properly refine the gameplay.
Believe this was said in either the Dark Ages movie that came with TM:HO Twisted Edition or some random interview i've read a time ago.


Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 04:53:36:
Also, the gripes about "I'm sick of car combat and want to do something else" ring pretty hollow to me.  It's like someone playing Street Fighter V and saying, "I'm tired of playing this fighter, I want Ryu in a spaceship." 

Funny how are you putting words in my mouth, i don't see what's the problem with other game modes as long as the car combat sections are still there. Some variety never hurt anyone.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/08/17 at 07:57:44

The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 07:04:34:
Wasn't really a jab though, David Jaffe said that they got too caught in the cutscenes/stories to properly refine the gameplay.
Believe this was said in either the Dark Ages movie that came with TM:HO Twisted Edition or some random interview i've read a time ago.

Funny how are you putting words in my mouth, i don't see what's the problem with other game modes as long as the car combat sections are still there. Some variety never hurt anyone.


I wasn't putting words in your mouth.  I was quoting you.  You are the one who said it gives you something to do BESIDES car combat.  That literally means you feel like the car combat needs broken up.

Deadite:  "I love this racing.  It's a nice break from the car combat."

Me: "So the excitement was wearing off?"

Deadite: "Don't put words in my mouth.


The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 07:04:34:
Wasn't really a jab though, David Jaffe said that they got too caught in the cutscenes/stories to properly refine the gameplay.
Believe this was said in either the Dark Ages movie that came with TM:HO Twisted Edition or some random interview i've read a time ago.


That's because Dave Jaffe was never the reason the gameplay was amazing in the first place. 

Dave focused on atmosphere and story for TM2 and TMB.  For TMB in particular, the Incognito team focused on TMB.  Yeah, I get that in Dave's opinion TMB's gameplay suffered, but that's because he's a freaking ego maniac who assumed because he had very little to do with it it must have been lacking. 

He didn't even have a clue what that gameplay really consisted of.  He said so in numerous interviews later when he, upset that we didn't like his new game, told people essentially, "I had no idea you could do that in TMB . . ."

What's humorous about your statement is that the same damn thing happened in TMB.  Remember how you said you didn't like the short comic book endings of the bonus characters?  Yeah think about that one.  They were short and cheap because they ran out of time and money and had to focus on eliminating bugs and perfecting gameplay.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/08/17 at 10:15:04

Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 18:09:56:
Perhaps it's baiting a bit, but more or less just not being diplomatic about it.  It's common fan base (of any game mind you) to blame the publisher as if in every scenario it's the publisher's fault.  Fact is sometimes it's the game's developer.  Sony made a business decision that made sense.

Nobody here is suggesting that ESP could do no wrong. They were the root cause of TM 2012's failures, but at the same time, Sony certainly has blood on its hands too. In my opinion, Sony's executive decision to have ESP tack on a half-baked single player at the expense of funnelling time and resources out of the online experience was a major cause of why the game was so rushed and hastily coded.

I'm sure that expanding the scope of the game granted the team more time for development, but it clearly wasn't enough considering so many features intended for online play had to be dropped. Heck, the game was originally slated for October 2011, and it wasn't until less than two months before the planned release date that it was pushed back into 2012. I can imagine the deadline was a panic for most of 2011 (considering they barely made the 2012 deadline and still required a day one patch), hence the game's lack of polish.

Twisted Metal is a prime example that if you push out a product fast and cheap, it will most likely lack quality. Suggesting that the level of bugs present in the game at launch was purely because ESP was incompetent is extremely short-sighted. Yes, there are an endless number of issues with the design and gameplay that can't be attributed to Sony, but as far as the glitches and network errors go, you can't not place some level of responsibility on the publisher for placing such pressure on a small contracted dev. 

It's not a black and white issue, and every party played a part. Even when ESP's contract expired and it was in the hands of SMS to tweak and patch the game (the expenses for which are a drop in the bucket for Sony), there was no sense of urgency and it took them far too long to make extremely obvious and necessary tweaks. The blame is on Sony for not allocating the resources to that effort. It's a terrible idea for Sony to not support its exclusives, because there's a lot more on the line than just a single game. Exclusives are what drive people to purchase consoles, and as long as Sony doesn't have an exclusive experience I can't already play on PC, like a AAA vehicle combat game, a consumer like me has no reason to invest in their hardware.


Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 18:09:56:
You rarely have any idea about what you're talking about.

Case in point.  In the above you point out that TM:2012's health and weapons were on a timer.

Same is true of TMBO.  So . . . I've pointed out on numerous occasions (and so has The Truth mind you) how this kind of thing, which you do on a regular basis, just makes you look clueless.

Are you sure? Are you really, really sure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQMx_Ey5V_Q

Considering you are wrong, you are one of two things:

1. Someone uninformed about the game you rant and rave about, to the point that a TM 2012 player knows more about it than you do, and in an effort to call me clueless you simply made yourself to look clueless yourself.
2. A bigot who figured you could present an alternative fact and have it go unnoticed. It's especially ironic that you ignored first two sections of my post (which I presume from you lack of objection you simply agree with, regardless that it contradicts your earlier statements)... aside from this one attempt at correcting me, which you got wrong.

Perhaps if you think I'm a TM 2012 fanboy while I criticize the game to the extent I do, perhaps you should check yourself to see if you're irrational about your attachment to TMBO yourself. There's no need to be a TMBO apologist yourself, because Black is fantastic game. Nobody denies that. Either you're willingly ignorant to its few faults, or are willing to blatantly lie for the sake of your own pride.


Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 21:35:13:
In previous Twisteds, any car could beat any level, but in this version, you simply HAVE to be the speedy cars in order to pass the races.  Furthermore, the races often come down to pure luck.  Did everything line up or not?  If they did you win the race.  If not, start again. .

This might come as news to you, but you can also win the races by killing every opponent, making it very possible to win with any vehicle (especially considering the HP for all the opponents is dramatically for the races). Fun fact: I hold the world record times for all the race stages on twisted difficulty having used Shadow for each one. Shadow isn't particularly speedy. Yes, it's usually easier to win just by completing the race and killing off the few other lightweights that may pose a threat, but you aren't boxed into that strategy. In fact, killing the enemies is easier in the Diesel City stage with there being less opponents, which is likely why ESP made checkpoints for that event rather than gates, so you can go off-track. You'd be aware of this if you played the game in the last four and a half years, perhaps).

And for the record, I don't endorse the races having been included in the game. I would have rather seen the resources put into designing those events and coding the AI invested in the online components of the game. Twisted Metal isn't combat racing; it's vehicle combat. Same with the bosses. I certainly got my money's worth out of playing the different stages, but wouldn't want to see entire events dedicated to them in a future game.


The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
We aren't fanboys who will blindly support anything with Twisted Metal's or Sweet Tooth's name slapped on it.

Did you not read me write "We want a new Twisted Metal. We want it done right."? Yes, I don't want to see another Twisted Metal that fails the genre. Don't put words in my mouth, and don't make out as if the brand is ruined with the presumption that everyone shares your same personal vendetta towards Sony, Jaffe, the dev team, and so on. Yeah, they fucked up with TM 2012, but it's still very possible we'll see another strong entry in the series in the future. Simply put, you're a part of an extreme minority that happens to be vocal due to the negativity that has surrounded this forum for many years. How many people do you see on social media, YouTube and so on saying "I hope this series stays dead because there will never be a good vehicle combat game again"? Virtually nobody. Fans want a new game, and if questioned about it, of course they'd agree they want it done right.


The Truth wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:35:16:
It would be great if enough of us still owned TMX and could stomach playing it for a few weeks. Just to show you nothing has changed and the game still lacks the depth of past TMs. It wouldn't take long till a group of us that haven't played the game since months after launch were taking turns winning with a group of "pros" that have been playing since launch.

How typical of you. All words, no action. Very ironic considering you're supposedly "The Truth" and multiple times you have barked claims that it would take little effort to beat a TM 2012 player at their own game, but never have any intention of ever backing up such grandiose claims. Perhaps you should change your username to "My Opinion". Or perhaps for you to perceive something as the truth, it doesn't require proof or merit and simply has to align with your worldview.

One of these days, you should put your money where your mouth is. I'd imagine since you say you spent time with the game upon release you'll be aware of the maps, vehicles and general abilities in the game, so I'm sure it would take little time for you to become adept with the game if your view of it being a spamfest is correct. It only costs $15 and a little knowledge of a stripped-down game you believe lacks depth to prove your point. ;)


Spag wrote on 02/07/17 at 23:09:47:
I encourage you to play as well Muddeh. We have our disagreements on TMX but I'm not gonna try and discourage you or others from playing TMBO with us.

Play with us consistently and you'll get use to the pacing and get better as you go basically.   ;)

Thanks, looking forward to it. :)

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/08/17 at 18:49:40

The Deadite wrote on 02/08/17 at 01:37:46:
...something else to do besides fighting other cars.



Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 04:53:36:
"I'm sick of car combat and want to do something else"



Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 07:57:44:
I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was quoting you.


Clearly you weren't, i never used the words "i'm sick of the car combat", that's going to extremes, just saying i don't dissaprove of the game adding other events besides car combat in order to keep things fresh . Neither is comparable adding spaceships levels to street fighter to adding races to a game with cars.


Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 07:57:44:
What's humorous about your statement is that the same damn thing happened in TMB.  Remember how you said you didn't like the short comic book endings of the bonus characters?  Yeah think about that one.  They were short and cheap because they ran out of time and money and had to focus on eliminating bugs and perfecting gameplay.

TMB still has more movies that in TM12?
Remember this was also the early 2000's and these kind of CGI cutscenes were more time consuming and difficult to do that today. So yeah, more time and resources were directed to TMB's movies than the ones of the last game.


Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/08/17 at 18:50:57
Yes, I'm sure, at least as it pertains to full healths in TMBO.  For example, the full healths in TMBO regenerate every 2 minutes exactly.  As for the minis, that could be a different case but I think there you have more variety.  The helicopter minis do in fact re spawn on a consistent timed basis.  The ground ones are harder to discern what algorithm they're on.

I don't personally see any problem with Sony asking them to do a single player expansion.  They were given two years to do it and additional funding.  Considering Black had two years for its single player . . .

It's just hard for me to see what the problem was.  My personal opinion is Dave chose to blow the majority of the budget for the single player on the far more expensive cinematic movies.  I don't feel they were worth it.  I thought they were COOL, but I'd rather have had the more fleshed out experiences of before.

That's just my opinion though.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Luis on 02/08/17 at 19:13:55
The spawn location of the full health is still random though. They will sometime spawn on a unoccupied small health spot. Imagine one spawning right on top of you. ;D


Malefactor wrote on 02/07/17 at 22:49:09:
And all without losing your default game settings . . .
Except you guys banned health. The way you guys play the game is pretending that the health doesn't exist. That's not using everything the game forces you to have on the stage. An invisible health turn off option.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/08/17 at 20:29:26

Luis wrote on 02/08/17 at 19:13:55:
The spawn location of the full health is still random though. They will sometime spawn on a unoccupied small health spot. Imagine one spawning right on top of you. ;D

Except you guys banned health. The way you guys play the game is pretending that the health doesn't exist. That's not using everything the game forces you to have on the stage. An invisible health turn off option.


Agreed.  I despise healths.  They were an awful thing in TMBO, and it was even more unforgivable that by the time of 2012 they fracked it up again.

Still, if we're going to compare the games "as is," the fact is that TMBO has regular regenerating healths that are predictable.  If you find that to be a plus in a game (which I can't fathom but clearly Muddeh does) they ARE there.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Luis on 02/08/17 at 20:45:13
So I'm right that you're not really playing the game without losing your default settings. I just wanted to correct that statement because it wasn't true.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/08/17 at 21:14:05

Luis wrote on 02/08/17 at 20:45:13:
So I'm right that you're not really playing the game without losing your default settings. I just wanted to correct that statement because it wasn't true.


No, you're not right Luis.

When I made that statement, I was referring to the actual game settings (i.e. Level choice, mode (LMS, Deathmatch, Carnage, Kills), game time, relics on/off, cars) . . .

In TMBO when you choose those things as host THEY REMAIN FOR THE NEXT MATCH.  At least up until May of 2012 the new game frackin' erased them after every round and you had to start over.

So no, you didn't correct anything.  You just didn't know what the hell was going on and spoke about it anyway.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/08/17 at 22:28:28

Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 18:50:57:
Yes, I'm sure, at least as it pertains to full healths in TMBO.

You would have mentioned that the partial health pickups are RNG if you were aware, or cared to address the content of my post. Allowing full health pickups would kill the game's pace, so it's not even relevant to mention. We disable the health semi in TM 2012 for that same reason, regardless that its path and regeneration is predictable. Partial health pickups are a different story, and timed respawns of those pickups forges the competitive climate involving map control and greater cause to play aggressive, regardless that the stigma surrounding health is that it encourages and rewards excessively defensive playstyle. That stigma is appropriate in the context of random health (whether it be random timing or spawn locations) but not when it is timed. And it's not the same if the health spawns aren't predictable to the second. When respawns can range wildly, it makes health play nothing more than random dumb luck.

Point being, it's worthwhile to challenge preexisting notions of what does and doesn't work in a vehicle combat game. You ask why I would play TM 2012, which has inferior weapons mechanics, when I can play a previous TM where the weapons system is uncontestedly better? It's because of the many features and accidental depth in the new game that simply is not present in previous TMs. Without playing in a competitive environment (an environment which could not and did not exist during the initial months) you can't appreciate how things like predictable health respawns and killstreaks enhances teamplay, or what ramming/turbo dash and density of pickups/regeneration of specials does to encourage aggression and CQC in a modern game. As usual, the substance of my posts have been entirely ignored to this point, the your posts simply serve to discriminate against those whose opinions don't align with yours.

Summed up quickly, you are cancer that exists in the series. TM 2012 negatively influenced the series' reputation, but claiming it has been irreputably damaged is simply a means to justify basking in your self-contrived echo chamber of hatred. You have proven time and time again you have no interest in responding to the meaningful content of anyone's posts in a constructive manner, let alone responding with decency. When the game is brought up you interject your reasons for hating the game, most of which consist of fallacies you fail to acknowledge, whether or not the game is good is even the subject. You're merely an instigator, and it makes your blood boil to think anything good came from TM 2012 to the point you will refuse to have a rational discussion. If you want the series dead, what's the point of posting in a topic like this which asks what was right and wrong about TM 2012, which naturally serves the purpose of debating the features to implement/downfalls to avoid in a future game? Have you really got nothing better to do?

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/08/17 at 22:56:00

Muddeh wrote on 02/08/17 at 22:28:28:
You would have mentioned that the partial health pickups are RNG if you were aware, or cared to address the content of my post. Allowing full health pickups would kill the game's pace, so it's not even relevant to mention. We disable the health semi in TM 2012 for that same reason, regardless that its path and regeneration is predictable. Partial health pickups are a different story, and timed respawns of those pickups forges the competitive climate involving map control and greater cause to play aggressive, regardless that the stigma surrounding health is that it encourages and rewards excessively defensive playstyle. That stigma is appropriate in the context of random health (whether it be random timing or spawn locations) but not when it is timed. And it's not the same if the health spawns aren't predictable to the second. When respawns can range wildly, it makes health play nothing more than random dumb luck.

Point being, it's worthwhile to challenge preexisting notions of what does and doesn't work in a vehicle combat game. You ask why I would play TM 2012, which has inferior weapons mechanics, when I can play a previous TM where the weapons system is uncontestedly better? It's because of the many features and accidental depth in the new game that simply is not present in previous TMs. Without playing in a competitive environment (an environment which could not and did not exist during the initial months) you can't appreciate how things like predictable health respawns and killstreaks enhances teamplay, or what ramming/turbo dash and density of pickups/regeneration of specials does to encourage aggression and CQC in a modern game. As usual, the substance of my posts have been entirely ignored to this point, the your posts simply serve to discriminate against those whose opinions don't align with yours.

Summed up quickly, you are cancer that exists in the series. TM 2012 negatively influenced the series' reputation, but claiming it has been irreputably damaged is simply a means to justify basking in your self-contrived echo chamber of hatred. You have proven time and time again you have no interest in responding to the meaningful content of anyone's posts in a constructive manner, let alone responding with decency. When the game is brought up you interject your reasons for hating the game, most of which consist of fallacies you fail to acknowledge, whether or not the game is good is even the subject. You're merely an instigator, and it makes your blood boil to think anything good came from TM 2012 to the point you will refuse to have a rational discussion. If you want the series dead, what's the point of posting in a topic like this which asks what was right and wrong about TM 2012, which naturally serves the purpose of debating the features to implement/downfalls to avoid in a future game? Have you really got nothing better to do?


Every time I reply to one of these dumb posts I have nothing better to do. 

Look, for all of us who seriously played the previous online games, your game sucks.  You don't see it because you never played them online.  We see it because we did.

You keep going on in melodramatic ways about how much you love the series BUT THAT IS PRECISELY WHY YOU KEEP HAVING TO DEAL WITH ME AND OTHERS LIKE ME.  It's like if you found out your girlfriend, who had been wonderful for a decade, suddenly became a cheating shallow bitch - you'd feel pretty spurned and you'd probably go off about it every once in a while. 

I did love the series - PAST TENSE.  It started to suck.  I don't love something no matter what and your form of Twisted Metal is, in my eyes, better off dead. Baby Metal blows. I want history to know that I'm one of the many who hated it.  It worked for 989's games - maybe if someone picks up the ashes of this dead shell they'll fix these problems.

You have never brought up ONE point that we didn't tear to pieces.  As I've looked at your replies over the years I've realized it's probably because you're just too dumb to even understand what is being said.  There are people out there with that problem.  It doesn't make you bad, it just means you don't understand what the hell a syllogism is, and you couldn't make a pithy focused reply if your life depended on it.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/08/17 at 23:53:24

Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 22:56:00:
Every time I reply to one of these dumb posts I have nothing better to do.

I'm glad we got that out of the way. Maybe you should, you know, do something you enjoy rather than bitch about a game you say you have no pride invested in. Or maybe play another game and be involved in another active series rather than harp on about a series that you believe is permanently deceased. :)


Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 22:56:00:
It's like if you found out your girlfriend, who had been wonderful for a decade, suddenly became a cheating shallow bitch - you'd feel pretty spurned and you'd probably go off about it every once in a while. 

So... if anybody makes a post involving your ex on Facebook, you immediately comment and tell that she was a cheating shallow itch and they're a moron for being associated with her. And on top of that, doing it five years later? Okay then...


Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 22:56:00:
I don't love something no matter what and your form of Twisted Metal is, in my eyes, better off dead. Baby Metal blows.

I guess you don't want a skill-based, fast-paced, balanced, stable and team-based Twisted Metal with a focus on the gameplay and the online experience, featuring creatively designed vehicles with practical specials, an wide range of battlegrounds, with mechanics which involve challenging but not undodgeable projectile weapons, ensuring not to repeat the same mistakes that have plagued the series in the past? That's my vision of an ideal Twisted Metal in a single (albeit run-on) sentence. I guess you wouldn't even want a Twisted Metal done properly, in that case.


Malefactor wrote on 02/08/17 at 22:56:00:
You have never brought up ONE point that we didn't tear to pieces.  As I've looked at your replies over the years I've realized it's probably because you're just too dumb to even understand what is being said.

I've been called dumb by the great Malefactor! Oh no, what a crushing blow. He said I'm dumb, and instantly my argument is invalid!

I made a few incorrect statements before, but in recent threads you have never torn to pieces a single point, because you have barely even brought up a single point. The simple fact is, for years now you have entirely ignored the content of my posts. This thread is no different. All you do is simply discredit me without addressing anything I say. Aside from calling me clueless, the single thing you attempted to refute and correct me on, you got wrong. No opinion involved, it's an objective fact that there is RNG health in TMBO and you responded as though there wasn't.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/09/17 at 00:02:03
Oh, now you're just being whiney in a high school way. It takes a few seconds to post this stuff.  Big fat deal.  Any of our moms could argue we're losers for posting here for any reason.

I'd give your posts a bit more attention if I thought you'd discuss it rationally and refrain from pages of straying rants, OR if you gave a new argument we hadn't already shot down.

Think about this. I've played with over 100 people regularly on TMBO and TM2:PC.  Hardcore players I spent hours with and knew by name.

Every single one of them abandoned TM:2012 out of mass disappointment.  Right down to the guy who started TMA.

That means something very significant, even if you don't want it to.                           

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/09/17 at 01:30:08

Malefactor wrote on 02/09/17 at 00:02:03:
I'd give your posts a bit more attention if I thought you'd discuss it rationally and refrain from pages of straying rants, OR if you gave a new argument we hadn't already shot down.

In the first post you called OP's assertion a joke, and then call Deadite a moron without having prior history with either of them. How is that prompting a rational discussion? And again, you don't even respond to my posts, so how can you claim you've shut them down? If they're that easy to shut down, you could have done it with half the effort it's taken to continually avoid responding to what I've posted.


Malefactor wrote on 02/09/17 at 00:02:03:
Every single one of them abandoned TM:2012 out of mass disappointment.  Right down to the guy who started TMA.

Mort's the pillar of the community and the person of over a hundred people you would choose to represent you, eh? I suppose in that case you guys enjoyed spamming Juggernaut's turret, spamming Vermin's undodgeable alt special, and flying with Sweet Bot? Yeah, you would say those videos are him just fucking around and not intended to be entertaining displays of skill... but why did he dedicate entire series of montages to the stuff TMA as a whole supposedly frowns upon? For that matter, link me a single match out of the hundreds upon hundreds of uploads on his channel played in a competitive unranked lobby. You'll find none, because all he played for ranked for years upon years after logging thousands of hours, way more than I've spent even after he's been away for quite a while. Is this TMA's standard?

For the record, I have nothing against Mort personally and he has always been friendly with me. It was simply frustrating that he would never play unranked. I had him on my friend's list for the longest time and he'd be online while we were playing in unranked, but he'd be in ranked lobbies instead. It's not like he just lacked a competitive drive and wasn't part of the clan scene, but he consciously avoided playing TM in a skillful manner and was unrepentant about playing in manners for the TM 2012 and TMA communities would frown upon. It's just laughable that you choose him as your gold standard. Bless his heart, the last few months he was around he would join our lobbies from time to time. We usually had to stack his team because was weak from being so used to just playing ranked, but at least he made an effort. He even tried to pull Mosh into here and there games, but most of the time when Mosh did come did he would purposefully choose Jugg, Talon, etc. mid-match, which he did in the majority of ranked games as well. Again, another proud TMA representative.

Don't construe things to even think I have anything against TMA as a whole. I'm well aware the decent and rational folks simply don't come around here or bother chipping in to these kinds of threads due to the endless negativity. While I'm sure that a very large portion of them have a negative opinion of TM 2012, extremely few would represent your views that they wouldn't want to see a new entry in the series. As I've said, you're the vocal minority, and because you're the person who is the most aggressive and the most reactionary, you've become the face of TMA in its current state. It's quite a shame. Anyhow, I know there's some great personalities that do play TMBO still and don't appear on the public forums, so even if opinions may differ, I'm at looking forward to playing with folks who still take pride in the series and don't surround themselves in negativity.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/09/17 at 01:47:39
You're trashing Mort now?  Besides that, did you miss the part where he's one of over a hundred?

I don't get you.  You need to get to a point where you at least accept when you've been given powerful evidence against your case.  Unless you do that you will always come accross as an apologist. 

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 02/09/17 at 22:47:35

Muddeh wrote on 02/08/17 at 10:15:04:
How typical of you. All words, no action. Very ironic considering you're supposedly "The Truth" and multiple times you have barked claims that it would take little effort to beat a TM 2012 player at their own game, but never have any intention of ever backing up such grandiose claims. Perhaps you should change your username to "My Opinion". Or perhaps for you to perceive something as the truth, it doesn't require proof or merit and simply has to align with your worldview.


I'll gladly be all words and no action. I'll speak the truth about it whether you want to accept it or not. No one is going to torture their self just to prove it to you. Especially when YOU are the one whos first real online TM experience is TM2012. If you played TM2PC or TMBO prior to TM2012, your posts about this wouldn't exist.

I'm curious though, how does one define a "pro" in TM2012? What do you look for and say "that guy is a pro"? What is it that takes a long time to master? What is it that you don't think one of us would be able to do? What would you accept for "beating a 2012 player"? I assume someone has to be equal to the worst pro in the room/game? Just so we are clear, I'm not saying one of us could return and win every game by large margins raping every pro. The depth for that doesn't exist like we always have said because the actual combat was butchered. We are saying we can be playing competitively in a short time. Much shorter compared to a previous TM like TMBO.



Title: A Few Afterthoughts
Post by Malefactor on 02/10/17 at 00:14:41
I remember the first few (2.5 years of TMBO) we all obsessed over what was fair, what wasn't.  The battles went on and on and on. 

Then at some point we all decided we don't give a shit anymore. We all had fun and "played to win."  It was such a deep game that countless strategies evolved.  Things we never would have thought of came out of having to face a "cheap" tactic.

I can fully believe that TM:2012 is such a shallow frag fest that there really aren't any counters to certain strategies and it all becomes just a frustrating pile of crap when certain things are done. 

Nevertheless, you need to know that the only thing I found disgusting about your post on Mort and Mosh was your post on Mort and Mosh.  I had no problem with what you attacked them for.  They only wanted to play ranked?  That hardly bothers me, the damn unranked settings sucked so bad (weaker than TMHO's settings - a game that came out in 2005 - and weaker than TMBO - A GAME THAT CAME OUT IN FREAKING 2002!) they probably did that out of sheer frustration.  They liked using Sweetbot and Talon?  Whatever . . . I hated Talon but the damn vehicle is in the fucking game.  That's a reason to hate the game, not condemn Mort and Mosh.

So we're on completely different wavelengths here.  Finally, if you read my posts you'd know that it's not that I don't want ANOTHER TWISTED METAL, it's that I don't want another Twisted Metal that sucks real bad.  So far the series is at less than 50% stellar titles. 

A good example is the Silent Hill series.  It should have been put out of its misery back in 2003.  It was AMAZING . . . Then it wasn't.  It looked like PT might resurrect it from the dead . . . And then OMFG what a nightmare that followed.  Only crazy people can dream up this stuff - and it actually happened! I'd rather it have not continued to wallow in its own piss.  That's not negativity, that's seeing someone you love becoming a drunken bastard and your heart cries out for them just stop already.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by †Adonael on 02/10/17 at 05:14:05
This potato looks like a tomato.

I want it to be a tomato.

It doesn't taste like a Tomato.

Maybe I should go buy a fucking Tomato.

You get me?

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/10/17 at 06:18:59

†Adonael wrote on 02/10/17 at 05:14:05:
This potato looks like a tomato.

I want it to be a tomato.

It doesn't taste like a Tomato.

Maybe I should go buy a fucking Tomato.

You get me?


I get what you're saying, and if I could walk into a store and buy a fresh tomato, I'd think you have a point.

However, I can't do that.

So no, I think your point is kind of irrelevant. 

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by †Adonael on 02/10/17 at 06:29:57
Quit comparing two things that are two different things and never meant to be the same, you dense buffoon.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/10/17 at 07:02:43

†Adonael wrote on 02/10/17 at 06:29:57:
Quit comparing two things that are two different things and never meant to be the same, you dense buffoon.


Nothing you're saying makes sense.  I can call you a name too.  You're a dumb jackass.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by †Adonael on 02/10/17 at 08:32:37
Thank you.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Magnum on 02/10/17 at 11:34:00
Anyone wanna play with some horses?

Got a few purdy ones on brawl to hang out with!

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/10/17 at 13:46:49

Malefactor wrote on 02/09/17 at 01:47:39:
Besides that, did you miss the part where he's one of over a hundred?

Did you miss the part where I said "While I'm sure that a very large portion of them have a negative opinion of TM 2012, extremely few would represent your views that they wouldn't want to see a new entry in the series."? Nobody here is contesting that the majority of players who were active on TMA were disappointed by the game. That has never been a subject on contention. But I hold that the majority of TMA would both want, and believe in a future TM done properly. Or for that matter, just an online vehicle combat game done properly that a larger playerbase can get behind, even if it's just an indie project.


Malefactor wrote on 02/09/17 at 01:47:39:
You need to get to a point where you at least accept when you've been given powerful evidence against your case.

I recognize any points you make, and either accept or refute them. In the meantime, you completely ignore the substance of my posts in favour of going off topic by making redundant claims (which in most cases aren't even relevant to the actual discussion) and insulting others to provoke a response to ensure the topic is guided that way. You twisted this thread from a discussion of the game's pace into a forum to vent why you think the game sucks.


Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 00:14:41:
they probably did that out of sheer frustration.  They liked using Sweetbot and Talon?  Whatever . . . I hated Talon but the damn vehicle is in the fucking game.

I'm pretty sure that Mort wouldn't be making music videos of tactics which would frustrate him, let alone hundreds of them. At least if they were meant to be parody, you'd expect him to be choosing songs like Yakety Sax and not game/rock songs. I'm sorry, but I don't believe Mort and Mosh would invest such time in the game and still play in such a manner out of frustration... they did because they found it fun. Choosing Talon for the sake of it being in the game is like choosing Spectre in TMBO and purposefully playing like a bitch with it. It's in the game and a tactic you can use, but is pointless since it's unfun to both play that way and fight against such a player and you could have much more fun playing in a skillful manner. The point of me mentioning them is simply because you're implying a double standard. If my taste in games is inferior, then Mort's (the one person you singled out of over a hundred others, presumably implying he has the most prestige) played in an even more tasteless manner. Again, I have nothing against Mort. He's a cool dude, and you just brought his name up in an ironic context.

I get your pain that the series hasn't produced a game to the quality we know it can. I'm still very willing to have them take another stab at it. It's not like Silent Hill which is still being milked with a biennial/triennial release, versus Twisted Metal which has only had two bad eggs since the turn of the century. It's also not like there are other similarly-theme survival games that have replaced Silent Hill in the modern generation. We have next to nothing to fill the void, and if there was a decent alternative to Twisted Metal on the market then I would be less impassioned about seeing the series rise from the ashes. But simply put, there isn't. Twisted Metal is all we got, and whether Sony invests in the series again or a third party ceases the opportunity to develop a new vehicle combat IP, it does the community no good to bask in negativity. You and I both know what the series is capable of, and I don't think our opinions of what would make a solid new TM wildly differ at the core, I do appreciate the more respectful tone of your last post towards me.


The Truth wrote on 02/09/17 at 22:47:35:
No one is going to torture their self just to prove it to you.

What's the point in even showing your face and challenging someone, and not being willing to follow through? It's like walking up to someone on the street and telling them you could beat them up if you felt like it, but would rather not risk chipping a nail. You're liable to get your ass whooped someday with that entitled attitude. You clearly got dispensable time and don't mind being tortured reading and involving yourself in rhetorical debates like this. If you've got a point to prove, quit being a pussy and let's brawl.


The Truth wrote on 02/09/17 at 22:47:35:
Just so we are clear, I'm not saying one of us could return and win every game by large margins raping every pro.

Win every game by large margins? Using terms like that makes me believe that you think playing competitive team-based TM is an individual effort. Let this be your first piece of advice. If your first concern is playing for the sake of your stats, you're likely going to fail. Since you're curious enough to question what it takes to be a "pro", here's the skills you would need in the most basic way I can present them.

1. Driving Skill and Map Navigation
2. Vehicle and Weapon Competence
3. CQC Execution
4. Situational Awareness
5. Map Control and Pacing
6. Team Synchronization

Driving skill is what you would expect, simply being able to pilot your vehicle efficiently while constantly using turbo, along with knowing the most effective weapon routes from any spawn/location and knowing how to make some of the trickier jumps into narrow chutes or jumping high ledges that don't leave much room for bad timing.

Vehicle and weapon competence is obvious too, simply knowing the capabilities of each vehicle with their stats, their specials, as well as how weapons work. It sounds simple of the surface, but this also ties a lot into knowing how different vehicles command different playstyles, and choosing a vehicle that is suitable with your teammate's choices. In small team matches it is critical to balance a lineup with both ruggedness and speed.

CQC execution is simply being able to fight in close quarters. Obviously, landing weapons and the skill-based pickups and specials is critical in this regard, along with knowing how to stagger/prepare combos, use energy effectively, fighting 1v1 versus group situations, but also maneuvering to be unpredictable to set up/avoid rams and dodge when you can to tie together both offence and defence. Just like any TM, it's awkward at first but eventually becomes instinct.

Situational awareness goes a long way, especially in team games. Being aware of when a player is developing a killstreak, and supporting the teammate/shutting down the opponent is a must. Not being isolated critical as well, especially when low on turbo or inventory. It may sound simple, but it is very easy to be ambushed. Same goes for defence at a long distance, dodging garbage inventory that may be fired on you afar, jumping shockwaves, not being frozen, etc..

Map control again ties into weapon routes, but also has a lot to do with positioning and commandeering areas of the map with the strongest resources, since you're never going to win in CQC spamming homers and garbage inventory. With both weapons and health being on a timer since when they're last acquired, pacing is huge to ensure survival, running weapon routes when most efficient and starving your opponent of resources.

Team synchronization is also huge with competitive TM being purely team-focused. There's a constant balance between ensuring your team covers a large footprint of the map and controls the resources, but also doesn't get isolated or outnumbered in a fight. Certain players and vehicles can play more aggressively than others, and it's important to strike that perfect balance.

I would imagine you'd agree that a lot of what I outlined mirrors what is required to play a previous TMs effectively in a team setting. Obviously, there's a range of skill among veterans, but if you can tie together all six of those fundamentals you'll likely hold your own. On different nights there will be different ranges of skill depending on who logs in that night, and some nights (depends on who's hosting mostly) we're willing to let infrequent players who have decently high skill ratings join in, and just balance the strong players around them. What I wouldn't expect is to have to not balance the teams with strong players being partnered with someone having little experience playing and still having a fair match. Basically if you play on the opposing team, put up a strong performance and come out with a win for your team without being carried or farmed for easy kills, I would concede.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/10/17 at 14:54:44
I have never ignored any point you made.  The simple fact is your Twisted Metal offers nothing that the old ones don't already offer, and they offer things yours can't.  That's why people disliked it. Well, that's almost true.  It offers flying cars, and a game that's mostly offensive.  So if that's what you prefer, yeah, it rocks.

Yesterday I booted up the old Twisted Metal 2012 server.  Funny thing is it tracks who has played a lot in the last month even.  Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it looked like the only people who really played it were newbs.

Even you guys have moved on from it. Maybe it's time to move on from this thread too.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/10/17 at 15:40:14

Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 14:54:44:
I have never ignored any point you made.  The simple fact is your Twisted Metal offers nothing that the old ones don't already offer, and they offer things yours can't.

Half my damn posts have been focused on the features that were present in TM 2012 which salvage the game. Why would I play a game with inferior weapons mechanics if there wasn't something more involved? It simply proves that you are not even reading, or otherwise not processing my posts. I'm not trying to indoctrinate you into the church of TM 2012 for goodness sake. I could care less if you like the game or not, and if you weren't obsessed that was my motive then you may actually figure out what I'm speaking about. Here's a copied and pasted paragraph, since you wouldn't have made your previous post if you had even read it.

Point being, it's worthwhile to challenge preexisting notions of what does and doesn't work in a vehicle combat game. You ask why I would play TM 2012, which has inferior weapons mechanics, when I can play a previous TM where the weapons system is uncontestedly better? It's because of the many features and accidental depth in the new game that simply is not present in previous TMs. Without playing in a competitive environment (an environment which could not and did not exist during the initial months) you can't appreciate how things like predictable health respawns and killstreaks enhances teamplay, or what ramming/turbo dash and density of pickups/regeneration of specials does to encourage aggression and CQC in a modern game. As usual, the substance of my posts have been entirely ignored to this point, the your posts simply serve to discriminate against those whose opinions don't align with yours.


Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 14:54:44:
Funny thing is it tracks who has played a lot in the last month even.  Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it looked like the only people who really played it were newbs.

First, I can hardly tell how you can simply look at a leaderboard and determine if someone is a newb based on stats. Second, if you're looking at the monthly leaderboard it resets at the start of each month, hence why you'd likely notice the stats wouldn't have been much larger than the weekly leaderboard when you looked. Third, we play unranked and not ranked. Our stats aren't recorded after matches. There's a number of casuals who get a kick out of playing ranked on a frequent basis, most of which are terrible players since they lack any competitive drive. I don't get the appeal, but different strokes for different folks I guess.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Jcub95 on 02/10/17 at 16:06:07
Toward Malefactor & The Truth

Truthfully It doesn't make any sense to me how you are judging simply based off of the initial months the game came out, when literally everything was a chaotic server-disaster, and the game was riddled with nonsense that a simple community of casuals jousting mounted guns could not overcome such as the Talon / Sweetbot spammers.

With all of these things mitigated the game plays unimaginably different. You may assume just because you play a game of similar depth and technique, that there would not be any possibility of such a thing In current TM. This ultimately Is laughable in a sense, as I see you boasting about things that just simply happen by accident or are absolutely rare and practically nonexistent, such as dodging every single missile that comes at you from every angle or some other elaborate claim. Once In a way, this may happen In TM2012 too actually. I have seen a number of scenarios where a player underestimated someone because of low health, and got utterly demolished because In their minds they assumed that a few simple fire and forget weapons would finish the job.

Once you become aware of what counters are available, and what to expect from generally each vehicle and playstyle, these baby-tactics are simply frowned upon and are proven ineffective. You can come and use the most basic to learn vehicle In the game, & a more seasoned player could beat you with the lowest class vehicle they can think of; simply because of a stronger usage order of attacks, knowledge of the terrain, pure talent to nail sliding power shots, rear napalms, manual fires, catch you In staggered situations, proper use of shields, capitalization of your terrible decisions and so on.

There Is a great layers upon layers of depth just simply In the hierarchy of regular players ability to compete in the strongest environments. A player may do well, a player may do great, then there are the players who perform a full package playstyle, and can make these players look average with consistency of high damage output, concentrated attacks (leading to personal points or assists), and In most cases, with the general positive K/D.

The fact that you assume a game you have played well over a decade Is far beyond anything another player from another TM would be capable of falls short, when you are making utterly half-baked claims about that which you have not experienced, as well as a scenario you are too afraid, or otherwise too stuborn to tackle head on. Formulating conclusions based on Ignorance seems to be the hallmark of those blinded by comfortable nostalgia.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/10/17 at 18:20:56

Jcub95 wrote on 02/10/17 at 16:06:07:
Toward Malefactor & The Truth

Truthfully It doesn't make any sense to me how you are judging simply based off of the initial months the game came out, when literally everything was a chaotic server-disaster, and the game was riddled with nonsense that a simple community of casuals jousting mounted guns could not overcome such as the Talon / Sweetbot spammers.

With all of these things mitigated the game plays unimaginably different. You may assume just because you play a game of similar depth and technique, that there would not be any possibility of such a thing In current TM. This ultimately Is laughable in a sense, as I see you boasting about things that just simply happen by accident or are absolutely rare and practically nonexistent, such as dodging every single missile that comes at you from every angle or some other elaborate claim. Once In a way, this may happen In TM2012 too actually. I have seen a number of scenarios where a player underestimated someone because of low health, and got utterly demolished because In their minds they assumed that a few simple fire and forget weapons would finish the job.

Once you become aware of what counters are available, and what to expect from generally each vehicle and playstyle, these baby-tactics are simply frowned upon and are proven ineffective. You can come and use the most basic to learn vehicle In the game, & a more seasoned player could beat you with the lowest class vehicle they can think of; simply because of a stronger usage order of attacks, knowledge of the terrain, pure talent to nail sliding power shots, rear napalms, manual fires, catch you In staggered situations, proper use of shields, capitalization of your terrible decisions and so on.

There Is a great layers upon layers of depth just simply In the hierarchy of regular players ability to compete in the strongest environments. A player may do well, a player may do great, then there are the players who perform a full package playstyle, and can make these players look average with consistency of high damage output, concentrated attacks (leading to personal points or assists), and In most cases, with the general positive K/D.

The fact that you assume a game you have played well over a decade Is far beyond anything another player from another TM would be capable of falls short, when you are making utterly half-baked claims about that which you have not experienced, as well as a scenario you are too afraid, or otherwise too stuborn to tackle head on. Formulating conclusions based on Ignorance seems to be the hallmark of those blinded by comfortable nostalgia.


I'm sorry, but TM:2012 just isn't THAT different than any of the other Twisteds.  Even with my complaints about it, it still plays very much like the other games, it just has these annoying deficiencies that make it unbearable.  Besides that, it plays JUST like TMHO, except it's buggier.  Many of us, myself included, spent an entire year trying to see if TMHO was better than we thought. TMHO is almost the identical game game mechanic wise, and all of the TMA players who stayed on and insisted on seeing if the game was good came back and said, "yeah, you're right, you were straight up right." 

The rest of your post arguing that we are ignorant is laughable because you are the one arguing from ignorance.  There are certain facts about the previous Twisteds and the most recent that are impossible to ignore if you're honest.  Are you aware that each Twisted, if you go into the actual guts of the programming, has a scale measuring how strong the tracking is on the weapons?  If you examine that and compare it TMB's is far less than TM:2012 and TMHO.  The higher you turn up that number the more it becomes near impossible to dodge things in the game.  TM:2012 and TMHO's is pretty damn high, and some weapons (like homings) are maxed.  Dodging in TMB isn't some accidental thing you see every once in a while.  It is a game changing event that happens in every match dozens of times.


Muddeh:  If you want to go the rounds on a specific mechanic you think I'm ignoring I'll do that now, but there are a few key rules:

1. You name ONE.  We do not move on until we address that ONE.

2. You keep it pithy.  You do some 22 paragraph rant about a game mechanic and I'm bailing.  It DOES NOT TAKE THAT LONG TO DESCRIBE A GAME MECHANIC.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/10/17 at 18:29:14

Muddeh wrote on 02/10/17 at 15:40:14:
First, I can hardly tell how you can simply look at a leaderboard and determine if someone is a newb based on stats. Second, if you're looking at the monthly leaderboard it resets at the start of each month, hence why you'd likely notice the stats wouldn't have been much larger than the weekly leaderboard when you looked. Third, we play unranked and not ranked. Our stats aren't recorded after matches. There's a number of casuals who get a kick out of playing ranked on a frequent basis, most of which are terrible players since they lack any competitive drive. I don't get the appeal, but different strokes for different folks I guess.


Simple answer.  The leaderboard shows who the top players are for a specific month, and it shows how long they've played.  All of the top players for the current month had times below one day - hence the assumption that they are newbs.

If you guys completely and 100% ignore ranked then that may explain it. 

Have you been playing the game much in the last month?

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Jcub95 on 02/11/17 at 00:09:51
Yes, Ignorant in the sense that you have assumed that which you do not understand In the new TM. You don't have open mind of intelligence enough to rationalize an unbiased reconsideration. You simply formulated conclusions due to the short experiences you have had.

Nobody besides YOU ever argued that one was better than the other, and I actually never once claimed that this one was any different from the previous multi-player installments.

It's as Muddy says, you respond to messages without paying heed to the subject, If it Is on subject, It's a hideous misinterpretation, or some sort of write off due to the limitations you have set on your perception of the game you are oblivious to.


Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:29:14:
Simple answer.  The leaderboard shows who the top players are for a specific month, and it shows how long they've played.  All of the top players for the current month had times below one day - hence the assumption that they are newbs.

If you guys completely and 100% ignore ranked then that may explain it. 

Have you been playing the game much in the last month?


The Leaderboards are Irrelevant to your point. They measure primarily based off of XP In Ranked. Ranked Is an uncontrolled environment where we can go 10+ Kills, 10 Assists and 0 Deaths more often than not on a regular basis, so we essentially avoid It unless there is literally nothing happening, or we are busting a couple of boosters.

If Leaderboards went by more than how much you can Noob-Streak and rewarded Stat Whores Instead of Skilled Players, we might pay more attention to it.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/11/17 at 00:24:02

Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:20:56:
...Are you aware that each Twisted, if you go into the actual guts of the programming, has a scale measuring how strong the tracking is on the weapons?  If you examine that and compare it TMB's is far less than TM:2012 and TMHO.  The higher you turn up that number the more it becomes near impossible to dodge things in the game.  TM:2012 and TMHO's is pretty damn high, and some weapons (like homings) are maxed.  Dodging in TMB isn't some accidental thing you see every once in a while.  It is a game changing event that happens in every match dozens of times.

Both games also have different level design so that comes into consideration, TMB has more empty large areas and undetailed barren spaces while TM12 has various details scattered on the levels that might absorb the weapons damage. TM12 also has a tighter driving so is easier to maneuver that in TMB so this it evens the (possible) design choice.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/11/17 at 00:35:08

The Deadite wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:24:02:
Both games also have different level design so that comes into consideration, TMB has more empty large areas and undetailed barren spaces while TM12 has various details scattered on the levels that might absorb the weapons damage. TM12 also has a tighter driving so is easier to maneuver that in TMB so this it evens the (possible) design choice.


You're right about the level differences, but I'm unsure where you got the idea that TM:2012's cars are more maneuverable.  Black's cars all have a higher rate of speed and a tighter turn ability.  If you pick Black's largest car (Minion) he turns sharper than his Jugg comparison.  He even turns sharper than the mid range choices.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/11/17 at 01:01:45

Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:35:08:
You're right about the level differences, but I'm unsure where you got the idea that TM:2012's cars are more maneuverable...

Personally i found the driving in TMB to be "muddy", cars oversteer a lot and the brakes aren't that responsive, doesn't have the best controls in the series.


Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:35:08:
...If you pick Black's largest car (Minion) he turns sharper than his Jugg comparison.  He even turns sharper than the mid range choices.

Well that's because it falls on the boss category, he always had it's stats maxed out and control was one of those categories, also, the sharp steer was part of the boss fight behavior where he drifts around in order for you to shoot the panels.
I could be wrong because there might be differences between Boss Minion and Gameplay Minion other than size.


Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:35:08:
...If you pick Black's largest car (Minion) he turns sharper than his Jugg comparison...
I know Jugg is Minion's counterpart in TM12 but it isn't the best comparison either, Juggernaut has an attached trailer while Minion's is bolted in place. Jugg was never gonna able to drift like the rest of the vehicles so it drives like a stranded whale but makes it up with OP ram damage.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/11/17 at 01:30:24
Well this isn't an opinion issue.  Turning rates, speeds, stopping rates are all matters of testable objective fact.  If you don't believe me whip the two games out and compare:

1.  The radius on the turning for the vehicles.
2.  The top speeds of the vehicles (compare it to the surroundings, how fast it moves).
3.  The ability for the cars to hug the roads (TM:2012 has wider power slides - i.e. More situations to fly out of control).
4. Compare the brakes (Black's cars stop unnaturally - they come to a complete stop in almost no time flat).
5. Ability of cars to flip (in TM:2012 it's pretty easy, in TMB it's harder, in TMBO it's impossible).

This isn't surprising.  The team, starting with TMHO, said that a number of people preferred the "bumpier/bouncer/sloppier" feel brought about by the PSX limitations when they built TM1 and TM2.

Consequently they tried to imitate that floaty feeling with both TMHO and 2012. 

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/11/17 at 02:03:45

Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 01:30:24:
Well this isn't an opinion issue.  Turning rates, speeds, stopping rates are all matters of testable objective fact.  If you don't believe me whip the two games out and compare.

I would actually love to do that but sadly, my PS2 has been fingerbanged to oblivion and i'm unable to play TMB.
I don't own a PS4 either.
I do remember getting frustrated with TMB a couple of times because i was unable to drive into the electric heal thingies while in a hurry, not to mention all those Darkside Slams that missed the target.


Malefactor wrote on 02/11/17 at 01:30:24:
5. Ability of cars to flip (in TM:2012 it's pretty easy, in TMB it's harder, in TMBO it's impossible).

I'm aware that you are making a point about vehicle control but one of the reasons i like TM12, is the exagerated ram phisics, ramming enemies in Black is nowhere near as satisfying.


Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/11/17 at 02:20:10

The Deadite wrote on 02/11/17 at 02:03:45:
I do remember getting frustrated with TMB a couple of times because i was unable to drive into the electric heal thingies while in a hurry, not to mention all those Darkside Slams that missed the target.


Memory is an interesting thing.  If you're recalling it from the pre TM:2012 days it might just be that you got better at Twisted Metal over all.  I have the same memories - except now I can do those with ease (just as I'm sure Muddeh can drive cars in 2012 extremely well).

At any rate, my guess is the difficulty, particularly with Darkside, comes from the break neck speed.  Darkside goes extremely fast and even though her turning is amazing, it's not enough to compensate for the bullet rams she pulls off.


The Deadite wrote on 02/11/17 at 02:03:45:
I'm aware that you are making a point about vehicle control but one of the reasons i like TM12, is the exagerated ram phisics, ramming enemies in Black is nowhere near as satisfying.


I get that.  If you like to see cars fly around the place (though keep in mind they rarely really are flying around - what happens on your PS3 isn't usually happening on your opponent's) TM:2012's rams are more satisfying. 

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/11/17 at 02:40:46

Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:20:56:
If you want to go the rounds on a specific mechanic you think I'm ignoring I'll do that now

Go back through the thread (or for that matter, the last three threads) and find everything you had ignored by yourself. I didn't write what I did for the sole purpose for you to reply to. It's up to you to reply if you either agree or disagree with it. You can ignore it if you want but if you keep droning on, I'll keep telling you that you're barely reading before responding, or are otherwise unable to process what you read.


Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:29:14:
Simple answer.  The leaderboard shows who the top players are for a specific month, and it shows how long they've played.  All of the top players for the current month had times below one day - hence the assumption that they are newbs.

Please assure me you're not so dense to think you can look at somebody's ranked stats and determine if they're a skilled player or not, let alone just looking at the top of the XP leaderboard. If someone has to be a tryhard in ranked matches against low-level players to feel good about themselves, then their stats are likely a fabrication and they'd get their ass beat if/when they try to play competitive.

The times displayed on the weekly and monthly leaderboards are the times the player logged during the week/month in ranked. The top player on the monthly leaderboard has logged ten hours in-game in ranked in ten days, and is one of the basement dwellers I speak of. Only one person in that top ten is a player who even shows up in competitive lobbies, hence proving ranked performances mean very little.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/11/17 at 03:38:51

Muddeh wrote on 02/11/17 at 02:40:46:
Please assure me you're not so dense to think you can look at somebody's ranked stats and determine if they're a skilled player or not,


*Sigh*

Just when I started to open the door to have a real discussion with you you once again expressed why it's so pointless.  Your reading comprehension is so off the charts bad that such an endeavor would be completely impossible.

I was NOT making any sort of comment about skill.  How can you not notice that?  Was it the use of the word "Top" that threw you on a completely irrelevant tangent?  The leaderboards rank you, it's what they do, inaccurate or not, but clearly my SOLE point was on the time played, not some desire to praise anyone's particular skill. Yet addressing that isn't even a part of your reply.

I was simply saying that the leaderboards show who has played a lot in ranked matches in the last month, AND if you click on their names, you can see their total time on the server in ranked matches. 

Since all of the total times were under a day, it was a possible and reasonable assumption that they are all newbs.  Hence my statement that it looks like the pros aren't even playing much anymore, just the newbs.

Yet somehow you go off on some tangent about skill.  Good God man.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/11/17 at 03:51:00

Jcub95 wrote on 02/11/17 at 00:09:51:
Yes, Ignorant in the sense that you have assumed that which you do not understand In the new TM. You don't have open mind of intelligence enough to rationalize an unbiased reconsideration. You simply formulated conclusions due to the short experiences you have had.

Nobody besides YOU ever argued that one was better than the other, and I actually never once claimed that this one was any different from the previous multi-player installments..


Don't you see how you are contradicting yourself here?  If they aren't largely different then there is no reason I couldn't know how the game would play from a few months.  Only if there is some radical difference would it require more experience to determine the strengths and weaknesses of this particular installment.   

They can't both be true.

I also assume you mean no one on this thread is arguing one is better than the other because to claim that no one besides me has condemned this game is grossly inaccurate and provable just by searching these boards.

However, even with this particular post, you are proving that you are incapable of objectively analyzing what is going on, as "The Truth" is also clearly arguing from a similar viewpoint as my own. Finally, Hockeyguy, who started the whole post in the first place, doesn't explicitly state that he doesn't think it's as good as the previous installments, but it wouldn't surprise me based on the evaluations he has given.  He'd have to state for sure though.

At any rate, your statement seems indefenisble and asinine, so buddy, maybe you should let mom and dad do the talking?


Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22

Muddeh wrote on 02/10/17 at 13:46:49:
What's the point in even showing your face and challenging someone, and not being willing to follow through? It's like walking up to someone on the street and telling them you could beat them up if you felt like it, but would rather not risk chipping a nail. You're liable to get your ass whooped someday with that entitled attitude. You clearly got dispensable time and don't mind being tortured reading and involving yourself in rhetorical debates like this. If you've got a point to prove, quit being a pussy and let's brawl.


At no point have I ever challenged you to a game because I have no desire to ever play it again. I'll admit it would be extremely satisfying doing it just to see what your response would be. However there is not enough to drive for me to invest time in a game I don't find fun and can't stand. Not to mention it is probably a pain in the ass finding people other than noobs to play with. I'd imagine at this point in time, you need to schedule games to even play with pros. Then with network errors on top of that, it would make playing the game even more of a nightmare.

The main thing though is it has already been proven to you with overwhelming facts so having someone actually show you is a waste of time. The only thing you say is basically "game has changed, can't judge is on the first months". It would be an excellent point except for the fact that we never judged on the first months. The game also hasn't "changed" everyone has just mastered the mechanics.  We judged it on our 10 years of experience playing all the other TMs online. We were the experts, we knew how everything worked. We could tell what impact so and so had on this or that. We knew how everything would play out.

Lets go over some facts...

When Jaffe annouced that you could not turn off healths, we said it was horrible because we knew better. At the time though we didn't know combat would be dumbed down. Then jaffe said he didn't know if dodging was possible and tried to get confirmation from tester "madden pro justin". Who of course ended up having no idea what the hell he was being asked and said "yes". We did not know 100% that combat was dumbed down yet. However we called it that getting healths would essentially try make up for dumbing down combat and play would revolve around them. You now confirm that exactly this and that it makes the game more interesting for you guys that play.


It took us all of 5 mins of beta to officially confirm the combat was dumbed down due to auto aim undodgable weapons which is what killed the game for us. Hell we feared this just watching game footage before beta. TM2012 has dumbed down combat and as a result is no where near as fun for people who played TM2PC/TMBO. Combat depth is greatly diminished which also brings down player skill cap. After calling it almost every online TM noob then said there is no way possible we could know that playing so little and we need to play more. Some even claimed that dodging played a role or flat out could not understand what we were even talking about and why it was a big deal. However some of those online TM noobs eventually admitted that we were right. You also have admitted it as well.

In our little play time and pretty right from the start. We have pretty much called almost every fucking thing. We called that talon was garbage. We called that flying in general was garbage. We called juggernaut was garbage. We called teams being the best way to play(however dumbing down combat completely ruined the best mode, last man standing) We called nuke mode was garbage. We called ranked was garbage. Hell we knew most of these things wouldn't work even before trying them. Your "pro" rooms settings are the same settings we would of been using right off the bat. Only problem was we couldn't meet up and get people in the room because of the fucking network errors.

You have listed all the things that make someone pro level in TM 2012. You have said that previous TMs mirror those things which you are correct. The main difference though is the COMBAT, which is the most important element of the whole goddamn game and the whole purpose of the game. The majority of depth comes from how COMBAT plays out. Everything else each contributes a small part of depth.

Saying that one of us could return to the game and be competing in a short amount of time is reality. You admit what makes someone pro in TM is mirrored across the games. If TM2012 clearly has easier combat and a past TM like TMBO has harder combat. How do you come to the conclusion that it would take one of us a long time to be competitive in TM2012? How can you possibly claim it when we called everything else and ended up being correct on it? How can you possibly claim anything like this when TM 2012 was your first ever and only online TM experience? I'm curious, how long do you think it takes to be a "pro" on TMBO? You already have a great deal of experience on TM2012. How long do you think it will take to master dodging/attacking?



Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Magnum on 02/11/17 at 13:40:33
Anyone wanna ride duh Brown horse??

Or it can ride you.......either way....lemmie know.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/12/17 at 14:17:21

Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:29:14:
Simple answer.  The leaderboard shows who the top players are for a specific month, and it shows how long they've played.  All of the top players for the current month had times below one day - hence the assumption that they are newbs.

I see the misunderstanding. You still didn't understand that the monthly leaderboard resets and only displays time spent playing from the start of the month, and believed that players who had played a few hours since the start of the month had only played a few hours in their lifetime (while many of the top monthly players actually had hundreds of lifetime hours), hence why you referred to such players as newbs. You failed to read my post stating that the monthly leaderboard resets at the start of each month and instead just tried to rationalize your first post. It was clear you still didn't understand since you suggested that if competitive players still played, then you would be able to find players with far more time on that leaderboard unless such players ignored ranked 100% and didn't appear on that leaderboard at all.

I figured you would have read my second-most recent post which indicates the monthly leaderboard resets, and you would realize the players that you had incorrectly believed to have only played a few lifetime hours had actually played far more. The fact that you rationalized calling them newbs when they clearly weren't new players lead me to think you had to be using the word "newb" in the context of skill, and that you were calling such players with hundreds of hours unskilled purely by viewing the leaderboard. Jcub interpreted it the same way I did, believing you were referring to skill. It was the only way to make sense of the idea you would refer to players with hundreds of hours as new players. I should have looked deeper into your message and realized you simply weren't reading, as usual. It's incredibly ironic you criticize my reading comprehension, when you clearly respond to my posts without even processing the information.


Malefactor wrote on 02/10/17 at 18:29:14:
Only if there is some radical difference would it require more experience to determine the strengths and weaknesses of this particular installment.   

Are you illiterate? That's all I've ever advocated. The advancements which salvage the game have entirely been the subject of my posts, of which you haven't responded to a single time in this thread. Not a single damn time through +80 posts. It's as if you're reading a paper, skip the entire substance, read only the conclusion and determine it's invalid because it doesn't abide by your own sense of truth. Now, for the third time, here's the paragraph that wraps up the thesis of what I write, copied and pasted for your convenience. If you want to refute it, go back through the thread and respond to what I had written backing it up.

Point being, it's worthwhile to challenge preexisting notions of what does and doesn't work in a vehicle combat game. You ask why I would play TM 2012, which has inferior weapons mechanics, when I can play a previous TM where the weapons system is uncontestedly better? It's because of the many features and accidental depth in the new game that simply is not present in previous TMs. Without playing in a competitive environment (an environment which could not and did not exist during the initial months) you can't appreciate how things like predictable health respawns and killstreaks enhances teamplay, or what ramming/turbo dash and density of pickups/regeneration of specials does to encourage aggression and CQC in a modern game. As usual, the substance of my posts have been entirely ignored to this point, the your posts simply serve to discriminate against those whose opinions don't align with yours.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36

The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
However there is not enough to drive for me to invest time in a game I don't find fun and can't stand.

You have enough drive and time to write 842 words in a single post, but still pussy out of a challenge? I'm sorry, but that's utterly pathetic. You simply come off as somebody with a massive inferiority complex who would be crushed if you couldn't back up your grandiose claims. Man up. Myself and others would be willing to play without auto-aim as well. No homers or snipers, only half-charged stalkers, manual remotes, etc..


The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
I'd imagine at this point in time, you need to schedule games to even play with pros. Then with network errors on top of that, it would make playing the game even more of a nightmare.

Drop in during the evenings. 80% of the time there'll be a lobby up during the prime hours and there will be a lobby up at least sometime during the night at least every day. I haven't been disconnected from an online match in over two years as of now, and server-side lag pretty close to non-existent these days. There's still the issue with lobbies running off listen servers and causes things to still be unstable if a room is filled to its max or if there are a number of international players, but it's much more bearable these days. Getting into lobbies can still be a pain at times, though it usually depends on the ping of the host.


The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
When Jaffe annouced that you could not turn off healths, we said it was horrible because we knew better.

Thanks for the history lesson on things I already knew. I know you're bitter at Jaffe. I am too. Health should not have been the default for FFA modes, and at the very least, there should have been an option to disable it in unranked. We're not off on different planets. But in the thread containing +200 posts regarding "why we know better" I presume you reference, the impact that the health being on a timer would have specifically on team games wasn't discussed once even though you guys were made aware by a statement by Jaffe it would be on a three minute timer. The thread simply contains two hundred posts of why it would replicate the same the crap that always had, and always will make health a load of crap in FFA modes. But for you guys, the impact of the timed health was inconceivable because you hadn't experienced static and predictable partial health respawns.

The criteria of timed, static and partial need to be fulfilled for health to make sense, and we stopped playing with the health semi and JYD's health taxis because those took away from the game's depth. Though, it admittedly took us a while to eventually ban the latter because we weren't playing at such a pace for the impact it had slowing the pace of the game to be noticed. It took you guys longer than five minutes to figure it out too. Until you play the game with timed partial health respawns, you simply cannot conceive the impact it has on teamplay beyond how I've recently explained it. Much like Malefactor, you didn't respond to the content of my posts and have gone off on your own tangent regurgitating things that have been said dozens of times before, and don't pertain to the counter-evidence beyond claiming "you know better" without valid cause.


The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
You have said that previous TMs mirror those things which you are correct.

Allow me to retract that statement. What I outlined mirrors previous TMs, and more. Most notably, in terms of situational awareness, map control and team synchronization. You can't nod your head and agree anything in previous TMs mirrors killstreaks and timed health, because they didn't exist then. While those three skills have been existent in previous TMs, they have been amplified in TM 2012 and that alone is what salvages the game in the way of its weapon mechanics.


The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
How do you come to the conclusion that it would take one of us a long time to be competitive in TM2012? How can you possibly claim it when we called everything else and ended up being correct on it?

When did I insist that it would take you a long time? What constitutes both a long time and being able to play competitive are both subjective anyhow. Like any TM, tying together both offence and defence is awkward at first, as well as developing teamplay instincts, but it develops on time depending on how frequently you play and what level of players you compete against and learn from. And considering it took a TM 2012 player to correct Malefactor that health not timed in TMBO, I called something as well. Let alone that whole idea being  able to "call everything" both now and in the future is a massive fallacy in of itself.


The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
How can you possibly claim anything like this when TM 2012 was your first ever and only online TM experience?

Very simple. You don't respond to any of the content of my posts. You don't prove me wrong. You make unrelated assertions and anecdotes that don't even relate to my argument.


The Truth wrote on 02/11/17 at 07:55:22:
I'm curious, how long do you think it takes to be a "pro" on TMBO? You already have a great deal of experience on TM2012. How long do you think it will take to master dodging/attacking?

I don't have pride invested in how I would perform in TMBO. I'm well aware the atmosphere is casual and I won't be playing to prove anything, unlike you. I would guess my development won't be much different than your experience would be with TM 2012, perhaps I may even develop faster since I don't deny the depth of TMBO.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/12/17 at 18:32:30
You're being dishonest Muddeh. Or you are fooling yourself too.  I have many, many times responded to your direct arguments.  Truth did too - he has done some pretty brutal responses in the past that were directly on point.  Even in the above he responded directly with facts to your compadres arguments.    So many times though you'd go off on tangeants that were unrelated, or miss the point, or change the topic.  Many times we'd catch you in contradictions, and you wouldn't stop and reassess like a person would in an honest debate.  Instead every time we nailed you it meant some New five hundred page off topic essay.

In recent times you're right.  I do read every word you post, despite what you think, but I don't engage you because I'm still convinced it'll be the same rodeo.

I very honestly offered to give you another chance but you demanded I pick your arguments.  That just doesn't even seem fair to you.  This is you who believes in it.  Shouldn't you pick your best stuff that you want addressed? 

Now in regards to the server, your claim is that the times are only for that month?  If you click on that specific person though, doesn't it show you the entire server history?  It showed mine, and I haven't played since 2012. As long as it does that, then if I click on the top players for the month, and see that their entire server history is short, then they are probably newbs.

Edit:  I will say this . . . And I may be wrong - but I think you are lucky Truth isn't taking you up on a challenge.  He remains one of the best TMBO AND TM2PC players of all time.  What's particularly incredible is that for TM2PC he came in over ten years late and was busting heads in a very short time amongst the veterans.  He really is an amazing gamer.  If he ever took you up on the challenge I think you'd wish he hadn't. 

Hey though, could be wrong. It looks like we'll never know.  By the way, I've dropped in on the lobby three nights in the last week just to take a gander.  The only rooms had three people in them and were ranked so it didn't look like your posse was on.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by †Adonael on 02/12/17 at 22:39:46
I guess I'll put my two cents in. Don't have anything better to do.

I stayed out of this argument in the past, and it is a argument not at debate, because I never played TMBO

When Twisted metal X 2012 whatever the hell all of you call it, came out I played completely through single player and played the game for a few months online. The game was fun. Pace was way way too fast. Seemed almost like they were trying to make a twitch based shooter (Like Unreal, Call of duty) into a car combat game. I always agreed with the fact because of this amped up speed the homing factors needed to be adjusted to help keep up with that speed.

Simply put if you were going at the speeds you were in X in Black, Nothing would ever hit you let alone come near to touching you.. But that is neither here nor there.

The game grew boring for me because even after months of playing there really wasn't much more depth to the combat. which is completely fine. The game was still fun.

When playing TMBO for the first few times. I really didn't know much of what I was doing despite playing all of the single player games, but I never discovered the added depth to the combat in these games, being I played them all at release and I was pretty young.

A lot of the time in TMBO there's little tactics you can apply to do combos and massive damage, some of which I'm not familiar with, but in a way, more like a fighting game than a shooter. Some weapons employ stuns and used in conjunction with specials  and freezes you can do some massive damage, excuse me if I don't go into super detail as I am still learning about the game.

Another strategic advantage in TMBO is multiple ways to use your specials. Yeah that's sort of a thing in TMX, (Laughing ghost, sweet bot and whatever else there is) but really not in the same context as TMBO. We'll take Yellow Jacket for example. You can fire his special off, which does a bit of damage, Ram which does more damage, turbo ram which does more damage than ramming and if you can get under a vehicle you can do massive damage.

If that doesn't suit your fancy lets look at Darkside. At base, Yeah all Darkside can do is ram, but the special has more abilites to it than just Ramming. It can be used as damage absorption, in conjunction with a  stun weapon, ram freeze, etc, etc. There's more to it than just that. as stated by other people, but thats what I've noticed on my own.

And as stated before, some weapons have a stun and bounce ability which further help set up your opponent for a combo.

Ability to dodge any weapon. (Lets not get into that argument again.) Some take more skill than others.

AA is also a lot more sparingly used in Black. This means you have to choose the right time to use a shield, or if you would rather freeze an enemy than have a shield in the chamber. The way AA worked in TMX simplified things a little too much in my opinion. And I'm not talking about the single button press factor, I'm talking about the way it worked. Some cars seemed like they had way too much AA compared to others.

That well of depth to the combat is what attracts me to TMBO and makes me waant to learn it and have a blast playing it. When you knock out someone who's been playing the game for 10 years (Which is no means CASUAL.) Earns you the feeling you must be finally getting a grasp on things. (Or just got lucky which is most likely.)

It's a much more rewarding experience than TMX in my opinion.


With that said, Neither one is better than the other. Some people enjoy fasted paced, frag fest rather than a methodical game and all that if good and dandy.

Like Jaffe said and I said previously when this argument ravaged this community:

They are two diffrerent games, two different entries. They are not made to be alike

Sooo, that said. Quit comparing potatoes to tomatos.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59

Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
You have enough drive and time to write 842 words in a single post, but still pussy out of a challenge? I'm sorry, but that's utterly pathetic. You simply come off as somebody with a massive inferiority complex who would be crushed if you couldn't back up your grandiose claims. Man up. Myself and others would be willing to play without auto-aim as well. No homers or snipers, only half-charged stalkers, manual remotes, etc..


Ohhh wow, I spent a whole 10 minutes making a post! I'm all for challenges but not the shit show you are demanding. No auto-aim? A ramming match with a few straight shot weapons? Why didn't you just say so in the first place! I'm not up for the regular shit show but  I'll gladly do an alternate shit show. I'll see ya tonight!


Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
Drop in during the evenings. 80% of the time there'll be a lobby up during the prime hours and there will be a lobby up at least sometime during the night at least every day. I haven't been disconnected from an online match in over two years as of now, and server-side lag pretty close to non-existent these days. There's still the issue with lobbies running off listen servers and causes things to still be unstable if a room is filled to its max or if there are a number of international players, but it's much more bearable these days. Getting into lobbies can still be a pain at times, though it usually depends on the ping of the host.


Most of the people that still play the game regularly to this day are the people the online luckily works for. Which is the a big reason why they still do play to this day. I'd like to propose a challenge to you. Tonight I'll gather up 7 people and you gather up 7 people. The team with the most people awake when we get 16 in the room is the winner. I'm pretty sure it will end in a draw though so we could just call it a draw now. The only winning move is not to play.


Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
Thanks for the history lesson on things I already knew. I know you're bitter at Jaffe. I am too. Health should not have been the default for FFA modes, and at the very least, there should have been an option to disable it in unranked. We're not off on different planets. But in the thread containing +200 posts regarding "why we know better" I presume you reference, the impact that the health being on a timer would have specifically on team games wasn't discussed once even though you guys were made aware by a statement by Jaffe it would be on a three minute timer. The thread simply contains two hundred posts of why it would replicate the same the crap that always had, and always will make health a load of crap in FFA modes. But for you guys, the impact of the timed health was inconceivable because you hadn't experienced static and predictable partial health respawns.

The criteria of timed, static and partial need to be fulfilled for health to make sense, and we stopped playing with the health semi and JYD's health taxis because those took away from the game's depth. Though, it admittedly took us a while to eventually ban the latter because we weren't playing at such a pace for the impact it had slowing the pace of the game to be noticed. It took you guys longer than five minutes to figure it out too. Until you play the game with timed partial health respawns, you simply cannot conceive the impact it has on teamplay beyond how I've recently explained it. Much like Malefactor, you didn't respond to the content of my posts and have gone off on your own tangent regurgitating things that have been said dozens of times before, and don't pertain to the counter-evidence beyond claiming "you know better" without valid cause.


Hopefully you are better at playing TM2012 than you are at playing detective. Good job finding that popular thread where we were commenting on it before we were able to see what they did with the game. In numerous threads after playing we said they would be part of the game and weren't an issue.

Also brilliant job posting a video claiming it represents what I'm saying. Its a random game and there is only 2 TMA people even in the room. Neither one of them is part of the main TMA crowd that already moved on at that point. They were from a select handful that played the game longer trying to find a reason to like the game.


Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
Allow me to retract that statement. What I outlined mirrors previous TMs, and more. Most notably, in terms of situational awareness, map control and team synchronization. You can't nod your head and agree anything in previous TMs mirrors killstreaks and timed health, because they didn't exist then. While those three skills have been existent in previous TMs, they have been amplified in TM 2012 and that alone is what salvages the game in the way of its weapon mechanics.


Sorry buddy, you don't get to retract it cause you slipped up and told the truth. Proving what I was saying was correct.


Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
When did I insist that it would take you a long time? What constitutes both a long time and being able to play competitive are both subjective anyhow. Like any TM, tying together both offence and defence is awkward at first, as well as developing teamplay instincts, but it develops on time depending on how frequently you play and what level of players you compete against and learn from. And considering it took a TM 2012 player to correct Malefactor that health not timed in TMBO, I called something as well. Let alone that whole idea being  able to "call everything" both now and in the future is a massive fallacy in of itself.


I triggered you with "It wouldn't take long till a group of us that haven't played the game since months after launch were taking turns winning with a group of "pros" that have been playing since launch.". Now you say you never insisted it would take a long time. Thanks once again for ADMITTING that my statement was the truth.

Maybe you would have some idea how "long" is but as usual would require you to have had experience with past online TMs.

Not quite sure how logging into the game and recording spawn times is you "calling it" Compared to us playing online TMs prior to TM2012 and almost immediately calling out almost everything and how it would play out instead of taking months to years to come to the same conclusions.


Muddeh wrote on 02/12/17 at 16:31:36:
Very simple. You don't respond to any of the content of my posts. You don't prove me wrong. You make unrelated assertions and anecdotes that don't even relate to my argument.


Except the part where you get proved wrong every time. You revolve around making claims based on your first online tm experience with TM2012. Then you try to argue said claims with people who have played them all online. Seriously you just ADMITTED what made someone "pro" was shared between TMs. Then you ADMITTED it would not take a long time like I said. Like usual you realized how stupid you were and are trying to go back on it.



Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/12/17 at 23:26:07
Okay, but I still was not wrong on the times. Are you wrong Muddeh about healths because the full healths (semis) drive randomly?

Of course not. You were thinking about specific healths and so was I. In TMBO the full healths respawn on a 2 minute timer, and they were the most fought over in the game (resulting in the same type of combat crap you praised). Chopper minis also are on a timer. The remaining healths respawn within a predictable time frame, though that time will vary.

The final takeaway is we DID experience predictable reoccurring health spawns and the cluster fights that occurred with them. That nuanced distinction was just assumed in that post, which is why it was never brought up. We were arguing all healths suck no matter the breed.

And we were right. They do. Further more, the syllogism we proposed for why all healths sucked would be unimpacted regardless of if we'd NEVER faced the timed ones. Anyone able to comprehend our argument would see that.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/13/17 at 01:53:52

†Adonael wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:39:46:
I guess I'll put my two cents in. Don't have anything better to do.

I stayed out of this argument in the past, and it is a argument not at debate, because I never played TMBO

When Twisted metal X 2012 whatever the hell all of you call it, came out I played completely through single player and played the game for a few months online. The game was fun. Pace was way way too fast. Seemed almost like they were trying to make a twitch based shooter (Like Unreal, Call of duty) into a car combat game. I always agreed with the fact because of this amped up speed the homing factors needed to be adjusted to help keep up with that speed.

Simply put if you were going at the speeds you were in X in Black, Nothing would ever hit you let alone come near to touching you.. But that is neither here nor there.

The game grew boring for me because even after months of playing there really wasn't much more depth to the combat. which is completely fine. The game was still fun.

When playing TMBO for the first few times. I really didn't know much of what I was doing despite playing all of the single player games, but I never discovered the added depth to the combat in these games, being I played them all at release and I was pretty young.

A lot of the time in TMBO there's little tactics you can apply to do combos and massive damage, some of which I'm not familiar with, but in a way, more like a fighting game than a shooter. Some weapons employ stuns and used in conjunction with specials  and freezes you can do some massive damage, excuse me if I don't go into super detail as I am still learning about the game.

Another strategic advantage in TMBO is multiple ways to use your specials. Yeah that's sort of a thing in TMX, (Laughing ghost, sweet bot and whatever else there is) but really not in the same context as TMBO. We'll take Yellow Jacket for example. You can fire his special off, which does a bit of damage, Ram which does more damage, turbo ram which does more damage than ramming and if you can get under a vehicle you can do massive damage.

If that doesn't suit your fancy lets look at Darkside. At base, Yeah all Darkside can do is ram, but the special has more abilites to it than just Ramming. It can be used as damage absorption, in conjunction with a  stun weapon, ram freeze, etc, etc. There's more to it than just that. as stated by other people, but thats what I've noticed on my own.

And as stated before, some weapons have a stun and bounce ability which further help set up your opponent for a combo.

Ability to dodge any weapon. (Lets not get into that argument again.) Some take more skill than others.

AA is also a lot more sparingly used in Black. This means you have to choose the right time to use a shield, or if you would rather freeze an enemy than have a shield in the chamber. The way AA worked in TMX simplified things a little too much in my opinion. And I'm not talking about the single button press factor, I'm talking about the way it worked. Some cars seemed like they had way too much AA compared to others.

That well of depth to the combat is what attracts me to TMBO and makes me waant to learn it and have a blast playing it. When you knock out someone who's been playing the game for 10 years (Which is no means CASUAL.) Earns you the feeling you must be finally getting a grasp on things. (Or just got lucky which is most likely.)

It's a much more rewarding experience than TMX in my opinion.


With that said, Neither one is better than the other. Some people enjoy fasted paced, frag fest rather than a methodical game and all that if good and dandy.

Like Jaffe said and I said previously when this argument ravaged this community:

They are two diffrerent games, two different entries. They are not made to be alike

Sooo, that said. Quit comparing potatoes to tomatos.


That's a thoughtful reply.

I can appreciate the argument that there is no "right" or "wrong" on which is better.  There are certainly some people who prefer the FPS feel of TM:2012.  For them, the series has never been more on track.

Still, like making a submarine game where the subs fly, or a puzzle game where most of the puzzles are target practicing with a rifle in FPS mode - you have to play to the genres' strengths.  ESP seemed to have lost faith in car combat and hoped if, instead of feeling similar to a fighter (like the old games) if they made it closer to an FPS it might be hugely popular. This kind of fear is why Incognito cancelled TMB2, and why the series was dormant for so many years. The odd thing, though, is that the entries made when they had confidence were all million sellers, and it was only when they didn't play to the series' strengths and made fear based decisions that it faltered.

The strengths are what TM should play to. People are slow - cars are all fast and some are faster than others.  Maneuverability, speed, armor, all those things and experiencing that is what makes car combat so awesome, and I think if fans experienced that they'd stay longer, and there'd be more of them.

It's funny how history repeated itself.  They got all paranoid (based on no real data - only fear) in 2004 that with the advent of Grand Theft Auto no one would ever love car combat again.  So they started to slap an "on foot" element in the game.  Someone realized that wasn't working so they canned it. In 2008 they had the same fears, but this time the dominant genre was FPS so they tried to imitate that one.  This time it was released, but with lower sales figures than the previous games and less fan acceptance.

I can't say why others post here sometimes and fight this fight.  I don't a lot - but sometimes, and it has to do with

1. Hoping that somehow if word gets out and someday the series is done again, it's done the "right," way.

2. Defending the version of history that I think is right (i.e. That we all tried to prevent all sorts of these errors, were patted on the head and told we're being heard, and then they pretty much ignored about all of the feedback).

There's a good chance it's all just a waste of my time.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/13/17 at 02:48:32

Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 18:32:30:
I have many, many times responded to your direct arguments.

If you're honestly believe this, then there's one of two things at play. Either you think regurgitating the same broad-strokes arguments without actually relating it to the points I make counts as directly responding, or you are illiterate and can't process what I've written, such that the most you can do is provide anecdotes and assign false cause. You consistently manipulate the subject, and it was you that guided the whole topic into a soapbox for you to rant about the weapon mechanics of TM 2012.


Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 18:32:30:
Shouldn't you pick your best stuff that you want addressed?

What I post is entirely relevant to the thesis I've posted again and again. But it doesn't align with your agenda of justifying your hate for the game, so you ignore it and go on unrelated tangents so you can feel comfortable in your bubble not needing to consider counter-evidence.


Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 18:32:30:
Now in regards to the server, your claim is that the times are only for that month?  If you click on that specific person though, doesn't it show you the entire server history?

You displayed that you weren't even aware you could view lifetime stats by selecting players on the leaderboard. You wouldn't have said oblivious things like suggesting competitive players must ignore ranked 100%. Even if you did select the players and look at their lifetime stats, calling the newbs still makes even less sense. I just added up the times of the top ten on the monthly leaderboard currently (LosAngelesGod, verstatilechimp, patrick5475v, Knight_voyager, FriedEggsOnaNail, damn_u_tm, steveKO59, DuckD0dgeRzzz, nnb1989 and WHIT3BOY_77_) and the average lifetime stat is +39 days of in-game playtime. If you had been aware that you could select their names, you would have not called players with an average time of nearly forty days newbs. Since you've logged in a couple times now, the most logical explanation is the you didn't realize you could select a player to view lifetime stats, and upon realizing you tried to save face for not knowing and looking like a doorknob in response to my posts. Case in point, you failed to read what I had posted and then attempted to rationalize your post, further proving you'll do anything to prevent you're admitting you're wrong on even straight up facts, hence why it's impossible to make any sort of progress in a conversation with you.


Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 18:32:30:
He remains one of the best TMBO AND TM2PC players of all time.

If you know them so well, what is their online handle? If their name commanded respect, then why not use that name on TMA rather than post as a sleezy alt? For that matter, what was your account when you had been active here and involved in the debates? I would love the see if you guys specifically "called everything" as The Truth claims. Not that I don't believe you, but fact checking would be nice.


Malefactor wrote on 02/12/17 at 23:26:07:
Are you wrong Muddeh about healths because the full healths (semis) drive randomly?
Can you not read? I stated that we stopped playing with the health semi and JYD's health taxis because those took away from the game's depth. It's not relevant to the way we play. Point being, the only way to play with timed, static and partial health packs in team games (which is the only way health makes sense) is in TM 2012.


The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Ohhh wow, I spent a whole 10 minutes making a post!

If it takes you ten minutes to compose nearly a thousand words, then no wonder you miss the entire point of the argument. That's simply enough time to mindlessly rehash the same anecdotes you always do without even putting thought into what I had posted. And it shows.


The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
I'm not up for the regular shit show but  I'll gladly do an alternate shit show. I'll see ya tonight!

I sent you a PM. Tell me your PSN ID so I can add you, or otherwise provide me some other form of communication to arrange this.


The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Most of the people that still play the game regularly to this day are the people the online luckily works for.

And again, what recent experience do you have to be able to claim you still have to be "lucky" to play today? All of us had terrible experiences in the early months, some worse than others. You're simply throwing out blind assertions to say that if you were among those who had the most trouble in the early months, you would still have trouble that's disproportionate to the rest of the playerbase today. You imply a burden of proof while, to this point, having been unwilling to experience the game first hand.


The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Neither one of them is part of the main TMA crowd that already moved on at that point.

Most of the players had moved in less than three weeks? I thought you said you guys stuck with the game for months before giving up. You think you could replicate the competitive environment which the effect of killstreaks and timed health require in that short of a period of time? You guys would have barely learned the battleground and gotten accustomed to driving at that point. Aside from the that, what would be so hard about telling the JYD not to heal, or for that matter not taking the heals they offer? It's not like the chat is a secret in this game, it wouldn't be hard to tell them to cut it out.


The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Sorry buddy, you don't get to retract it cause you slipped up and told the truth. Proving what I was saying was correct.

Then you would also say your lying to say the effect of killstreaks and timed health are mirrored in TMBO, which is impossible since they don't exist. And honestly, you're going to nitpick me to that extent? You can't deny they truth. I'm not altering my opinion, I'm correcting a fact.


The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Now you say you never insisted it would take a long time. Thanks once again for ADMITTING that my statement was the truth.

You can't read, can you? I responded asking when I insisted that it would take you a long time because you were putting words in my mouth and making it as though I have something to prove to you. I never said it wouldn't take you a long time. I said it would depend on how frequently you play and what level of players you compete against and learn from. Try again.


The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
Not quite sure how logging into the game and recording spawn times is you "calling it"

He proved he is not an authority on TMBO to the extent he claims because he had to be objectively corrected by a TM 2012 player about his own game.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by †Adonael on 02/13/17 at 03:01:04
I rarely chime in on things like this because it IS a big waste of my time to feed into these things, where it becomes a hateful squabble about who is right and wrong.

Look at Tekken, this is a prime example of a very popular fighting game that has only tweaked and added new features as it went. It may not sell as much as COD but with it's established fan base it makes enough to warrant production of a new installment.

Fighting games are not exactly unprofitable, but the figures will never match that of a game like Call of Duty or GTA, so like you said, they thought changing the direction would make it popular. That is a error due to the fact of the way marketing works.

Sonys marketing strategy is something like this:

Smallest profits:

early adopters/Fans = Secured purchases

Medium profits:

People who see the ads, reviews etc decide to buy the game

Large Profit:

The crowd that gives no fuck about said game. How do we make it Popular? Turn all these non-believers into believers by making this game mimic another game without losing it's coat of paint.

In other words make it Viable to the mass market.

Thats a complete bastardized version of what marketing teaches you, but it's a very flawed system and why I believe that TMX did as OK as it did. Jaffe was a factor in this as well because he believed the formula had grown stale and wanted to offer something new, but that's not a fault all on his own. A lot of people have their hand in the pot when it comes to multi millions and marketing.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/13/17 at 04:05:29
Muddeh, you're focusing WAY too much on this leaderboard thing.  I've made it clear that I could be wrong.  I took a glance the first time on and read through a few names.  I logged on twice after that just to glance at the server, not engage in an ongoing math project.  I specifically said I could be wrong, and I specifically asked you (thus giving you the chance) to answer if you've played a lot recently.  So if I was wrong, okay, move on.


Also, "real" (since none of these handles are real - hope you saw what I did there) don't matter at all unless you are trying to turn this fight into an ego fest, which in your last post you seem to be.  Suppose my name wasn't among ANY of those people posting and I'm lying - NEVER PARTICPATIED IN THE ARGUMENTS.  That's the worse case right?  Well so what . . . As long as the people in those posts called it - and they did - then the argument still stands.

Focus on what matters bro!  It's like if we were arguing about whether or not black holes ever dissipate and run out of energy, and you keep spending five days on if "black hole" is even the proper name for one.  Tangent! 

Anyway, I gave you plenty of chances to have a real discussion on specific points.  So far all we are doing are tangents, so I'm moving on.

EDIT:  AND FOR THE LAST TIME, TIMED HEALTHS DO EXIST IN TMBO.  Read above for God's sake.  It's arguable the game has BOTH whereas yours has one, but the most powerful healths in TMBO are very clearly timed.  You never played TMBO so all you have to look at is the base offline game, but it was different.  You just didn't know that, and then you refused to listen afterwards.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Deadite on 02/13/17 at 16:15:33

†Adonael wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:39:46:
Like Jaffe said and I said previously when this argument ravaged this community:

They are two diffrerent games, two different entries. They are not made to be alike

Sooo, that said. Quit comparing potatoes to tomatos.

Did Jaffe really said this?
They are part of the exact same series, they should be made alike. Is not like comparing Street Fighter to Mortal Kombat.


Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/13/17 at 20:15:56

The Deadite wrote on 02/13/17 at 16:15:33:
Did Jaffe really said this?
They are part of the exact same series, they should be made alike. Is not like comparing Street Fighter to Mortal Kombat.


Eh, I'm going off memory here but my memory says, "kind of."

At first, prior to the game's release, Jaffe insisted he was listening to our feedback in order to make the best Twisted ever.  He did emphasize he wasn't a "made to order" chef who would do whatever we wanted, but his goal was still to amaze us and he understood what we were saying.

Then the game came out and not only repeated the mistakes of past games we'd emphatically warned him about, but aggravated some of them even further.  At that point he was like, "Shut up you whiny ungrateful bitches, this is a new game."

So the truth is kind of somewhere in between.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by †Adonael on 02/13/17 at 22:28:35

The Deadite wrote on 02/13/17 at 16:15:33:
Did Jaffe really said this?
They are part of the exact same series, they should be made alike. Is not like comparing Street Fighter to Mortal Kombat.


Anytime he's asked about the series as a whole he always explains how each entire into the series is it's own and none of them are meant to be like the other. Which is kinda ironic given the fact of Head on and what was going to be harbor city.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Luis on 02/14/17 at 09:15:03
I played TMBO but only stayed for only a few weeks I think. I didn't stayed long. Ever since Twisted Metal Head On I have always liked Team Deathmatch over free for all. I'm not saying I can't win in normal Deathmatch in TM PS3 I just find teams more fun. Even if I win I still don't like it. When I found out that TMBO doesn't have a team mode I was surprised. We still did pretend teams where you have to be careful not to shoot your teammates or else they'll die. I enjoyed that but the problem is free for all in TMBO was the norm. Team Deathmatch was only played on Saturday and I got bored of that after a while. Well it makes sense that free for all in TMBO is the norm because there is no real team setting. TMPS3 had many Deathmatch rooms too but at least I didn't have to wait a whole week to play my favorite mode.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/15/17 at 00:53:02

The Truth wrote on 02/12/17 at 22:54:59:
I'll see ya tonight!

... and he hasn't even logged on TMA since his last post. Cool.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 02/15/17 at 19:35:28
Wow, that completely went over your head. You are definitely quite a bit dumber than I imagined.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 02/17/17 at 23:05:09
I should have figured you'd pussy out, but I was I also foolish enough to think you had a slight bit of honour. You say it wouldn't take long till a group of you that haven't played the game since months (or apparently now, less than three weeks) after launch were taking turns winning with a group of "pros" that have been playing since launch. Are you really going to make a statement of that nature and not even play a single game to back it up, all after you morphed the thread from a discussion of qualities of a TM game into a forum to stroke your ego?

I have nothing to prove to you. You questioned how you think I'll do in TMBO, and I was honest that I won't do much better than you would in TM 2012. The reality is, we'd likely be trampled in each others games regardless of how well we know the mechanics, because it takes time to develop instinct in the game. But you don't think the same of TM 2012 because you believe you can simply spam a few auto-aim weapons and become a pro? If you were to play a high-skill 2v2, how much of your team's damage do you think you would deal on your first day back? What about with zero auto-aim, where the weapons inventory is still larger than TM2's and all of the manual, stagger-inducing and homing weapons which are consistently dodgeable are still present? How is that still a shit show?

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 02/18/17 at 09:16:29

Muddeh wrote on 02/17/17 at 23:05:09:
I should have figured you'd pussy out, but I was I also foolish enough to think you had a slight bit of honour. You say it wouldn't take long till a group of you that haven't played the game since months (or apparently now, less than three weeks) after launch were taking turns winning with a group of "pros" that have been playing since launch. Are you really going to make a statement of that nature and not even play a single game to back it up, all after you morphed the thread from a discussion of qualities of a TM game into a forum to stroke your ego?

I have nothing to prove to you. You questioned how you think I'll do in TMBO, and I was honest that I won't do much better than you would in TM 2012. The reality is, we'd likely be trampled in each others games regardless of how well we know the mechanics, because it takes time to develop instinct in the game. But you don't think the same of TM 2012 because you believe you can simply spam a few auto-aim weapons and become a pro? If you were to play a high-skill 2v2, how much of your team's damage do you think you would deal on your first day back? What about with zero auto-aim, where the weapons inventory is still larger than TM2's and all of the manual, stagger-inducing and homing weapons which are consistently dodgeable are still present? How is that still a shit show?


Yes, I'm saying it and I'm going to continue saying it because it is the truth. It is a fact that TMBO takes longer to master than TM2012. Anyone with real experience with both will agree and say the same. Even someone with no TMBO expereince and a little bit of common sense can understand that TMBO with more complex combat will take longer to master.

What is coming back and playing a single game going to prove? Are you really that stupid? No one is going to come back and play 1 game and be at their best. I never said anyone could come back and compete on their first game. Lets just be clear since like usual you don't have any idea what is being said. People could come back and within a few weeks of playing to a month at maximum can be playing competitively. Like usual again because you are completely ignorant to this topic because of your zero TMBO experience, it takes many months to years to play competitively vs the best in TMBO.

I'm linking below a random recent "high skill" team game. Can you point out what is so complex that it would take us long to compete? All you need to do is go around spamming your best weapons. No thought, aiming, setup, or combos needed, get them in your line of sight and let the spamfest begin. Preferably flanking and focusing someone who your teammate is already attacking. Collect health when possible and avoid as much damage as possible by taking cover. I'm very confident in mine or someone else's ability to do this. I don't know how much damage exactly I would have on the first game in a 2v2. However I know I can jam whatever weapons I want up your tailpipe and there is not a goddamn thing you can do to stop it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kcp2joip3k

You are the only one stroking your ego. For years any time someone speaks the truth on TM 2012, you go off  trying to argue some point where you are completely wrong due to simply not understanding or having zero past TM experience. Are you really that pathetic and insecure that you can't handle someone saying TM 2012 is dumbed down and doesn't take as long to master compared to TMBO? We aren't saying it as an insult to you, its simply the truth. I play other games that have been dumbed down compared to their previous installment which I did not experience. I don't have a nervous s breakdown when someone says it is dumbed down, I agree with them especially after seeing it for myself. It doesn't mean you have to stop playing the game or feel like an idiot. Hell, almost all games in general are dumbed down today.

Now you demand I come play 1 game with you right now so you can reassure yourself how good you think you are? Then demand we play in a way that is essentially a ramming match with a few straight shot weapons? We are going to play a completely retarded match where we don't use 80% of the cars/weapons in game? What the fuck does that prove or change in regards to TM 2012 being dumbed down or quicker to master than TMBO?  I'd actually be afraid to come because if I somehow did win, i don't think you would handle it well. I don't want you to slit your wrists or take a bottle of pills. That wouldn't be good because I need you alive so I educate you and tell you how it is so maybe some day you see the light.

You actually do have something to prove. It is time you proved some things you claimed over the past years. Lets start with the latest one you just stated again. I dare you to post one of your videos of a high skill team game where you or opponents are dodging some things consistently. I triple dog dare you! Go ahead, do it

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 02/18/17 at 22:18:59
At first when I read his final paragraph I thought he was saying that homing missiles are dodgeable too.

However, I read it again and I think what he was saying is they would have a gentleman's agreement to only play with homing missiles that are dodgeable (so fire missiles - which have slight homing capability - are legal in the game, homings are not, charged stalkers are not, swarm missiles with slight homing are, etc.).

Edit:  It's amazing how I can watch just two minutes of that video and be bored out of my ever loving mind. It's like watching two ninja warriors with their arms tied behind their backs taking turns kicking each other in the junk. Except not as entertaining.  :P :D

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by BasedK9 on 02/24/17 at 07:03:30
I think the light cars dont have enough health and I think some classic cars like twister, thumper, grasshopper and slam would have been great.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 03/09/17 at 03:32:28

The Truth wrote on 02/18/17 at 09:16:29:
Anyone with real experience with both will agree and say the same. Even someone with no TMBO expereince and a little bit of common sense can understand that TMBO with more complex combat will take longer to master.

I like how you generally state "anyone with real experience with both" and don't name anybody. That's because you don't know anybody who played TM 2012 since the clan scene and high-skill matches hit their stride, do you? If you do, name them. The only person I'm aware of who plays TM 2012 competitively and also has somewhat recent footage playing TMBO is Luis. The matches he posted on his channel in December 2015 were among the first times he played TDM in the game. This video shows him putting up a game with massive DD, practically twice the DD as the rest of the lobby. This video shows him putting up another game with strong DD and another strong win for his team by a wide margin. This video shows him in a match where his team wins and survives without losing all five lives. On that basis, it sure didn't take him long to be able to hang with the vets.

Even if you factor in that he already has a lot of experience in single player TMB, that he was using a stronger vehicle, and that the lobby may have went easy on him being new to TMBO TDM (though I doubt they were purposefully tanking DD for him, and they may just have been firing a few less missiles his way) you can't deny those are impressive scores for very early online matches for him. In comparison, Luis posted his first online TM 2012 video in November 2013, and it wasn't until close to a year later that he became a mainstay in competitive TDM, became more entwined in the high-skill community, and was made aware of some of the game's nuances like Roadkill's secret stage 4 blood missiles.

I say this all in the context of him being an extremely talented gamer, as videos on his channel of him playing many games will show. Yet by the time he began playing competitively in TM2012 on a regular basis, he had played enough to have cleared the ranked levelling system at least ten times. Do I think he could have been a regular in high-skill lobbies earlier than he was? Certainly, his videos show him able to hold his own in ranked lobbies before then. However, he was able to kick ass in TMBO right off the get-go, not months later. In contrast, based on the first videos of him playing online in TM 2012 using Warthog there's no way he would hold his own against vets in 2013 during his first matches. This all comes after he had recorded single player playthroughs on twisted difficulty with every vehicle as well. Saying that is not a knock to him by any means. I would struggle no less, but it illustrates a clear example that your claim of TMBO taking longer to master than TM2012 is not based on any empirical facts at all. This clear example disproves it.

Of course, you could prove your point if you weren't such a pussy.


The Truth wrote on 02/18/17 at 09:16:29:
No one is going to come back and play 1 game and be at their best. I never said anyone could come back and compete on their first game Lets just be clear since like usual you don't have any idea what is being said..

When did I say that you said that I would expect you to be competitive in your first match? It's hilarious how you quite literally can't read. I had asked if you were to play a high-skill 2v2, how much of your team's damage do you think you would deal on your first day back? There's no assertion you would be able to compete on your first game, the same way I didn't make a blanket statement that it would take you a long time either. I wanted to gauge just how full of yourself you really are since you say it "wouldn't take long till a group of us that haven't played the game since months after launch were taking turns winning". I had asked that question knowing Luis had been able to put up strong games in one of his first experiences playing TDM. If you say it would take "a few weeks of playing to a month" of playing TM 2012, then congrats. You just stated it would take you longer to become accustomed as a player transitioning from TMBO to TM 2012 than it took for a player from TM 2012 to compete in TMBO. You said it, not me.

Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that either game would take longer than the other myself. Both games are complex in their own rights. The entire point of me bringing up the previous paragraph is simply to show the massive fallacy in stating one game takes longer to master than the other, because both games require the same skillsets. The stark contrast is that in TM 2012 you can occasionally put up decent scores in the right circumstances, but in most high-skill settings the impact of spam is largely mitigated.


The Truth wrote on 02/18/17 at 09:16:29:
I'm linking below a random recent "high skill" team game. Can you point out what is so complex that it would take us long to compete?

Want me to back that video up? You may expect me to, but I won't. From Luis' perspective, that was extremely boring game. There's a number of factors that made that game very dull, the first being that Vertigo is the most spammy map in the game. There's an extremely dense concentration of of homers and stalkers on that map, plus there isn't much environmental cover. It certainly didn't help that that the opposing team was practically all heavies, so battle between a Roadkill and a heavy on that map often break down into war of attrition. It was also a poor game for Luis defensively since there was definitely a number of swarmers that could have been avoided quite easily, not to mention some bad driving between being rammed and falling off the edge.

I was in that match using Darkside on the same team, and it was definitely a more entertaining fight from my end. Being less agile and less capable of controlling the stronger pickups in the centre of the map, I would heave needed to venture to the outskirts and rely more on skill-based weapons for either a higher concentration of damage like powers, or remote bombs to help stagger and set up ram combos, ideally getting the opponent to take environmental damage. I didn't have blood missiles which I could deal ~1000 DD, I likely didn't pick up as many of the spammy weapons in the core of the map and I likely didn't use the trigun at all (I probably use it about once every three games), yet I had very similar scores as him. It's only reasonable to think I would have done more than rely on spam and required to deal my DD in a more skillful manner in that instance.


The Truth wrote on 02/18/17 at 09:16:29:
Are you really that pathetic and insecure that you can't handle someone saying TM 2012 is dumbed down and doesn't take as long to master compared to TMBO?

Are you really that pathetic and insecure that you need to rant how it wouldn't take you much time to be able veterans of a game from five years ago that you hate? Jesus, you need to move on. Find something that will fulfill you more than posting claims on a website that you don't intend to back up. We've gone over it a thousand times. You don't respond directly to my while stroking your nub of an e-penis expecting others to be impressed. Get over your superiority complex and do something with your life you can actually be proud of.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 03/09/17 at 08:06:35

Muddeh wrote on 03/09/17 at 03:32:28:
Are you really that pathetic and insecure that you need to rant how it wouldn't take you much time to be able veterans of a game from five years ago that you hate? Jesus, you need to move on. Find something that will fulfill you more than posting claims on a website that you don't intend to back up. We've gone over it a thousand times. You don't respond directly to my while stroking your nub of an e-penis expecting others to be impressed. Get over your superiority complex and do something with your life you can actually be proud of.


Says the guy that took almost 3 weeks to come up with a response. Did it really take you almost 3 weeks to come up with this? SAD!

Thanks for posting videos of showing luis "hang with the vets", you made me piss myself laughing. Let me break down some things for you since you have no idea what is even going on due to your whopping 0 hours of TMBO play time and your piss poor comprehension.

First of all the people that play TMBO now do not play it in some prime of the game clan battle environment. There is also only a few of the better players even in the room. Some people that play TMBO now a days just started playing. Some have been playing longer but aren't the best.

Secondly the better especially the best players hardly go after newer or less skilled players and when they do they don't do anything that would do massive amounts of damage to them. Main reason being they would be killed out the game pretty quickly. Its not a whole lot of fun for someone new or not really good to spend the majority of the time sitting and watching from spectator. It also doesn't help them get better, more time as possible in game does.

The majority of luis's damage is on one player around his own skill level. He's also getting extra damage via friendly firing his team. No, luis did not do good or "hang with the vets" LMAO. It doesn't matter how high or good you/him think his numbers were. What matters is he was a points bucket and did nothing impressive to the better players or defensively. He could do 1000 damage every game and it wouldn't matter if it wasn't done on the better players. What luis done in those games actually had no impact on the games what so ever. The games were decided on how the better players did and what teams/cars were used.

Tbh I'm sure if those TMBOers knew ignoring luis or balancing teams to give him the most play time possible was going to be thrown back in their faces. They wouldn't of pissed around with him and the videos would show him out the game in a few minutes with little damage done.

Nice moronic attempt trying to prove a point you don't have. Maybe take another 3 weeks and try again? While you are at it, post the video already showing people consistently dodging things in high skill games like you've claimed multiple times over the past years. If you need more weeks, months, or years to come up with it then that is ok too. I understand it's hard to post a video that doesn't exist.


Muddeh wrote on 03/09/17 at 03:32:28:
From Luis' perspective, that was extremely boring game. There's a number of factors that made that game very dull, the first being that Vertigo is the most spammy map in the game. There's an extremely dense concentration of of homers and stalkers on that map, plus there isn't much environmental cover. It certainly didn't help that that the opposing team was practically all heavies, so battle between a Roadkill and a heavy on that map often break down into war of attrition.


Yea, no shit. Thank you for confirming what we already know and have been saying.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 03/09/17 at 13:37:31

The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 08:06:35:
Says the guy that took almost 3 weeks to come up with a response. Did it really take you almost 3 weeks to come up with this? SAD!

Have you been refreshing this page every five hours for the last three weeks and twitching in anticipation of a response? Good lord, you really need to get a life. Sorry for having kept you waiting for another opportunity to go on another dim-witted tirade.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 08:06:35:
First of all the people that play TMBO now do not play it in some prime of the game clan battle environment. There is also only a few of the better players even in the room. Some people that play TMBO now a days just started playing. Some have been playing longer but aren't the best.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 08:06:35:
The majority of luis's damage is on one player around his own skill level.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 08:06:35:
luis did not do good

Holy shit, are you ever grasping at straws. In the context of these matches being among the first times he played TDM in the game, you're seriously going to say he did not do good? First of all, there's nobody in that lobby that's remotely new to TMBO TDM besides Luis. Everyone there has played the game online for years and is a very notable member of the TMA community, so don't bullshit by saying "some people that play TMBO now a days just started playing" as if attributing to that lobby. Sure, the atmosphere in the community is more casual, but that sure doesn't mean the players don't have years of experience playing the game and haven't retained their knowledge and skills from years past, even if they don't play frequently enough to be in their prime. If you're going to knock players in that lobby down by saying they're of the same skill level as Luis, and attribute that skill level to not playing good, at least have the courtesy to name those players who you just ambiguously criticized. Because he dealt lots of damage to Mosh, is Mosh now of equal level as a new player to TMBO? How about Orion and Roadie, who Luis got some pretty harsh combos on?


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 08:06:35:
Secondly the better especially the best players hardly go after newer or less skilled players and when they do they don't do anything that would do massive amounts of damage to them.

I can see it being quite possible a few less missiles may have been his way and and the lobby may have targeted him less for combos (a point which I already mentioned), but that still doesn't explain his high DD. Are you going to say the opposing team was purposefully tanking his weapons too? That I highly doubt, and it would be of no benefit to helping somemone develop as a player if you allow for them to find success with poor offence that would be dodged and negated.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 08:06:35:
He could do 1000 damage every game and it wouldn't matter if it wasn't done on the better players.

How is 1000 DD not pulling your weight in a lobby with players that have played the game for many years? It's not like he's boosting his stats off someone incompetent. Mosh is a veteran, hence why Luis was able to "hang with the vets". You might not call Mosh a pro, but he's definitely still a veteran. I'll credit him the same title in TM 2012, even if he is a ranked Talon/Jugg jackoff in that game. 1000 DD adds up to about eight full-health kills, so that fact alone shows he targeted more than one player that match and allowed the rest of his team to have more situations where they were able to double up on the stronger players since Luis was already pulling more than his own weight. Even if you take ~50 DD off his score in that match due to friendly fire, that's still a drop in the bucket relative to the damage he dealt. Saying "what luis done in those games actually had no impact on the games what so ever" only further proves you have an extreme and irrational bias against anything which upsets your superiority complex.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by †Adonael on 03/09/17 at 23:24:08
TL;DR this whole thread.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 03/09/17 at 23:39:12
Don't try to pivot from the fact that you worked on that response for the past 3 weeks. SAD!

He didn't do good in the way you think but to the simple minded like you who think big numbers means all it looks like he did. You wouldn't know who is new and who isn't because like every clueless thing you post on the forum you have no experience with. New in TMBO means limited play time with good players. Half the room in those videos only started really playing with kai or the fan server. There also isn't the luxury anymore of being able to log in and play whenever for however long you want. They might only get to play a few hours a week at most. Main point being this isn't a room full of the best players playing clan battles aka highest level of play which is what you are going by on TM 2012.

His 1000 damage game is a load of shit. If I remember right I've seen it before but it appears the youtube comments are gone. It wasn't even a legit game because there was something going on that ruined the game. Skype issues, someone was afk, or teams were wrong. I don't remember what was said in the comments. Someone else will have to confirm what happened.At that point some people were pissing around which explains there is moments where people just let him hit them.

I did take a look at the next game in asylum. Mosh was the only one that went after him, everyone else mostly ignored him. Almost 500 of his damage was gained from Mosh and friendly fire. How much damage he did doesn't matter because hes not killing the better players or able to defend against them. If this was some clan battle environment with the best of the best. He would be eliminated out the game pretty quickly with little damage done making it a 3v4 battle.

Sorry you don't measure how good someone is or does simply by damage numbers. I'm sure that is a good indicator in a easy combat spamfest like TM 2012 but unfortunately it doesn't work that way in TMBO. Especailly when the better players aren't going after you so you don't get eliminated quick. If people are going easy on you that means you have no pressure on you and are free to drive around doing what you want. Which also means you will be in game longer to be able to put out more damage. Hope that solved the big mystery for you on how you can do more damage if people are hardly going after you.

Yes, Mosh is a veteran. Being a veteran though doesn't mean you are the best. The original point that it takes longer to be competitive in TMBO than TM 2012 at the highest level of play is still the truth. Based on your retard logic, someone could join whatever random room is up on TM2012 and do the most damage. Then be considered as "hanging" even though I didn't play or do nothing against the better players.

If you/luis think those high numbers are so good. Then clearly luis is the best, hes better than everyone. Luis should come back and do a game with the best players currently playing TMBO where they actually go after him. They can balance the teams around luis being the best as well. Surely he'll lead his team to a win with his massive damage. I will then bow down to you once the video is posted of it.


Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 03/10/17 at 05:48:40
I respect Mosh to death and he's a solid player, and he plays a lot on the reboot TMBO. He's certainly a Twisted Metal veteran, and the revival wouldn't survive without him.

However, for the record he didn't play through almost all of the original server's heyday as he played Twisted Metal 2 instead. So he's not exactly a veteran of TMBO.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 03/10/17 at 06:46:51
Let me get this straight. For a new player to do good during one of their first times playing TMBO TDM, they must must be able to lay beatings on the better players and show they would be able to play at the same level as the best players when they were in their prime over a decade ago? Holy shit, you're absolutely delusional.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:39:12:
New in TMBO means limited play time with good players. Half the room in those videos only started really playing with kai or the fan server.

Are you saying that after years of playing with players like Darkforce, Mikey, Aced and Roadie, players like Orion and Spag would not have improved and are on the same skill level as someone who was playing TDM for the first time? That's outright insulting towards them. Have you even actually played with them and able to judge them? Guess we'll never really know since you hide under the face of anonymity. If it is true that you remain one of the best TMBO players of all time as Malefactor stated, I'd love to see you put up +1k DD matches while consistently targeting only those you claim to be the better players and prove everyone current players can't compare to anybody who was one of the best.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:39:12:
Main point being this isn't a room full of the best players playing clan battles aka highest level of play which is what you are going by on TM 2012.

You make it out like TM 2012 pros are a bunch of sweaty tryhards after the game has been out for five years. It goes without saying it has slowed down and become a lot more casual in high-skill rooms. It would be equal to the point in time as TMBO when it required XLink to play in North America. I took an eight month break from TM 2012 last year, from April through November, as did a few of the players that I would claim to be among the top ten players in the game. In December myself and most of our clan came back to playing frequently, and the same time a number of the other top players have began hopping on much more often. Clan rivalries certainly still exist and we'll scrimmage here and there for kicks, but no clan is playing excessively and training to get ahead of the rest. We mix teams and balance vehicles to make it fun for both the best players and those who are veterans but not the best, newer players we've helped train and so on. Main point being, the two atmospheres are hardly different.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:39:12:
At that point some people were pissing around which explains there is moments where people just let him hit them.

Geez, are you ever grasping at straws. Everyone was playing and there's no clear sign that they wouldn't be trying. Are you going to claim there was some random issue with the game anytime someone you don't consider in your clique plays a decent match? If there even was an issue with that match, it doesn't account for the others.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:39:12:
I did take a look at the next game in asylum. Mosh was the only one that went after him, everyone else mostly ignored him.

Were people ignoring Luis the same way Darkforce was ignored for a whole three minutes on his first spawn while he was sitting on a sliver of health that match? He barely had a single weapon fired his way that entire duration, yet you say the pros were supposed to be ignoring Luis and primarily targeting him? Sure didn't look like it. And of course it's most likely that Luis and Mosh were going to often encounter each other, since they were both playing heavy brawlers with close quarters specials. Plus I'll bet if the team were to have been jackasses and played to eliminate the weakest players first to reduce the match to a 3v3, Mosh likely wouldn't have lasted much longer than Luis would have.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:39:12:
I'm sure that is a good indicator in a easy combat spamfest like TM 2012 but unfortunately it doesn't work that way in TMBO.

Wow, are you ever a moron. DD is way worse of an indicator of someone's performance in TM 2012. We play with healths, so while you can deal spread damage and spam from a distance all you like, it means absolutely nothing if it's not concentrated and if it doesn't convert into points for your team by finishing the kill. In TMBO, all damage dealt is absolute and can't be negated by standard rules, so is a much more telling stat. There is also a massively greater range of armour for vehicles in TM 2012. Minion has ~1.75 times Grimm/Spectre's HP in TMBO, but Warthog has ~3.33 times Reaper's HP in TM 2012. You can massively boost your DD by targeting the heavies, but managing to deal the same DD to a lightweight has far greater of an impact.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:39:12:
Based on your retard logic, someone could join whatever random room is up on TM2012 and do the most damage. Then be considered as "hanging" even though I didn't play or do nothing against the better players.

Nice try putting words in my mouth. As stated, DD is a bad measure of one's performance in TM 2012. However, it's a much better measure in TMBO.


The Truth wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:39:12:
If you/luis think those high numbers are so good. Then clearly luis is the best, hes better than everyone.

Again, you're making an inference of something I never claimed. You're taking the entire reason I bring up Luis and those games out of context. The purpose was to compare the time he spent playing online before putting up decent scores with veterans in TMBO versus the time spent before putting up decent scores with veterans in TM 2012. It took far longer before he was at the level where a team could be balanced around him in TM 2012, as is the case with any player honestly, while it was possible to balance a team around him in TMBO and have some competitive matches with him present with little experience online required. This shows that your that claim it takes longer to play decent in a veterans lobby in TMBO than TM 2012 is flawed. I'm not even claiming the inverse and saying that TM 2012 would take longer, and honestly just believe it would likely take an equal amount of experience because both games require the same skillsets. All there is to it is that you're wrong. Period.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 03/10/17 at 09:06:32
Darkforce was sitting on a sliver of health because there is this technique you might not of heard of called dodging. Thankfully in TMBO shit doesn't auto hit so you can stay alive a while on low health. Luis's team also had 2 of the top players on it while the other team had 1.

Good joke about TMBO and TM2012 atmospheres being the same, keep em coming you clown

Now stop trying to change the topic you little weasel. It takes longer to play at a competitive level against the best in TMBO than in TM2012. Your videos of luis doesn't prove otherwise. All it proved is he can do a lot of damage on Mosh while everyone else went easy on him because he is new.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Muddeh on 03/10/17 at 12:38:15

The Truth wrote on 03/10/17 at 09:06:32:
Darkforce was sitting on a sliver of health because there is this technique you might not of heard of called dodging.

Dodge what? I shouldn't be surprised that you can't read, but as stated, there was barely a single attack directed his way for practically three minutes. Don't just take my word for it, watch his own footage of the match and see for yourself. For instance, during that three minute period Luis got 1v3'd as Dark was sitting on the ramps. Shortly after Dark dropped to ground level and was there for thirty seconds attempting attacks, yet didn't get a single bullet fired his way. Considering how quick the opposing team was to jump on Luis with full health and ignored Dark while he was low and extremely vulnerable, it really puts into question how much slack Luis really got. At the very least, it's evidence enough that his performances can hardly be discounted on that basis.


The Truth wrote on 03/10/17 at 09:06:32:
Luis's team also had 2 of the top players on it while the other team had 1.

You're now saying either Aced or Mikey, who both played competitively on the original server, are not one of the better players? You really feel it's necessary to delegitimize TMA mainstays to try to prove a substanceless point in a thread as mundane as this? Jesus, you're a jackass.


The Truth wrote on 03/10/17 at 09:06:32:
Good joke about TMBO and TM2012 atmospheres being the same, keep em coming you clown

If you have no rebuttal, the best you can do is ignore what you can't disprove or simply resort to slander. Good work.


The Truth wrote on 03/10/17 at 09:06:32:
It takes longer to play at a competitive level against the best in TMBO than in TM2012. Your videos of luis doesn't prove otherwise.

You can provide absolutely nothing empirical to prove what you say. I know that facts aren't kind to you, but no matter how much you want to believe something, it doesn't make it true. It's all wonderfully ironic considering your undercover username on this site. In the Suburbs match the average from the other players was about 500 DD, so even if you completely discount 500 DD on Mosh and friendly fire from his 1k DD total, he was still on par from his attacks against the rest of the opposing team. Consider dealing enough damage to Mosh to almost kill him three times to be a cherry on top.

Plus it's stupid to discount damage dealt on Mosh anyways for how much playtime he's surely put into the game in the first place. Mosh definitely showed no sign of taking it easy on Luis. Heck, I would even be inclined to say Mosh was targeting him since he had held a grudge against our clan for us smashing him in TM 2012 when he'd pull out his pussy Talon and Jugg in ranked, which happened more matches than not. Luis was a member of our clan at the time, so it's entirely possible. And in that case, of course Luis is going to end up dealing more damage to Mosh when he's being singled out and forced into combat with him many of times.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by The Truth on 03/10/17 at 19:10:00
Weapons don't move light speed and auto hit so no one could easily take dark out. He didn't give them a shot, he had cover nearby and was staying by his team. The car hes using isn't the most threatening and I'm sure people were more worried about Roadie as darkside.

There is a huge skill ceiling in this game. I know this is very hard for you to understand coming from TM 2012 where almost everyone is equal. 2 tops players on 1 team vs 1 on the other is huge especially with team car choices as well. I'm sure you weren't able to comprehend dark and roadies teamwork where they were gang banging everyone. Noooo, it was luis's massive damage!

Wow, amazing there was one point in the game where 3 people shot something at luis. It was still mostly mosh with 2 warthog specials. Feel free to point out where Mikey, Spag, and Aced really went after him. While you are at it feel free to point out the grand total of damage he did to the top player on that team(mikey). Hint: he did more friendly fire damage than damage to him

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by †Adonael on 03/10/17 at 23:03:55
Ok. This is one thing I can actually share a little insight  on.

Being brand new to tmbo  the first few matches I played were with Spag and Crimson.  Yeah Spag died a few times, but he mostly dominated in basically a 2 v 1 match with two noobs. Crimson would get off a lot of specials and what not doing damage to both of us, but 95 % of the time spag won in those matches.

There is quite a difference in skill when its boiled down to simple matchs but in TDM the team will work together to help bring down skilled opponents and use strategy a bit. I've been playing almost every saturday since I started  and in a one on one scenario where my team isnt around the likes of Dark, Mikey, and a few others would just slaughter me.

Mosh isn't really a slouch either.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Spag on 03/11/17 at 00:17:45

Muddeh wrote on 03/10/17 at 12:38:15:
Plus it's stupid to discount damage dealt on Mosh anyways for how much playtime he's surely put into the game in the first place. Mosh definitely showed no sign of taking it easy on Luis. Heck, I would even be inclined to say Mosh was targeting him since he had held a grudge against our clan for us smashing him in TM 2012 when he'd pull out his pussy Talon and Jugg in ranked, which happened more matches than not. Luis was a member of our clan at the time, so it's entirely possible. And in that case, of course Luis is going to end up dealing more damage to Mosh when he's being singled out and forced into combat with him many of times.


Okay this is a little too much, we don't really target people like this. I certainly don't believe Mosh does at least.
Mosh has a pretty aggressive playstyle and from what I see it looks more like he was going for the foe closest to his size. Instead of picking on the smaller vehicles.

Oh and one thing I noticed on the video is Luis attacks immediately on spawn. We have a little 5 sec spawn attack courtesy rule. No blasting on start like that lol.

I won't hold that against him but yeah, just chill out for a bit when you spawn.




And as Adonael mentions, teamwork is very crucial on here. Some combos can really change the game around, from what I noticed from playing for 2 years is that Dark / Roadie have insanely good teamwork as well as Aced / Mikey do.

Finally though, I started playing February 2015, I have gotten much better from the beginning. The more I played with the main crew the better I got basically.

But enough rambling, I still want you to play with us Muddeh. Don't give a damn about how good you do or whatever, just play. You're in the discord with us so just let me know when you want to play man.

Title: Re: TM2012 needs to slow down!
Post by Malefactor on 03/11/17 at 15:37:56
I know a guy that would be more than willing to do a recorded match against Luis, or a series of matches, in Stadium (where there are no walls to hide behind) if you'd like a better measurement of the skill gap.

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