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Message started by Kilrahi on 07/08/12 at 20:15:38

Title: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/08/12 at 20:15:38
I was surfing the net today and came accross something I'd never seen before (I mean, I saw a clip of it in the documentary, but this is a bit more).  Check it out:

http://vimeo.com/31755961

What do you guys think?  It looks like the opening video of TMB2 but without really knowing more it's hard to know if it's that or just a fan film.  There are more here:'

http://vimeo.com/user8991185/videos/

Based on the fact it shows TMHO's intro in its entirety without any changes it indicates the TMB2 video might be exactly what it appears to be.  

Then there is this video which I don't know what to connect it to:

http://vimeo.com/31755595

Or this:

http://vimeo.com/31755695


It does appear that a guy by that name works at Sony:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/ron-padua/5/b94/21b


Kind of cool stuff.  Makes my heart ache a bit.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by PlatinumPlayer3 on 07/08/12 at 20:30:57
Hmm... thanks for the info, it's too bad the game was never completed. :(

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Obliverate on 07/08/12 at 20:37:42
I'm pretty confused by what you found. That first video, like you said, had a clip in TMHO. The thing is, that's the same truck from TMHO, and the video is in the same cell-shade-y look as the TMHO intro.

Second one doesn't work.

Third one looks like very early story ideas, basically an animated storyboard.

Last one... I don't know. It's got cell shading going on, but looks like TMB.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Mosh on 07/08/12 at 20:59:25
Cool find.
I wonder if the first one was meant to be promotional only, because it looks like a commercial.
At the end it flashes some interesting credits
"Twisted Metal Harbor City starring Needles, Mr. Grimm, Axel, Calypso, Miranda" Who the fuck is Miranda?

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/08/12 at 21:13:33

MoshfieldAsylum wrote on 07/08/12 at 20:59:25:
Cool find.
I wonder if the first one was meant to be promotional only, because it looks like a commercial.
At the end it flashes some interesting credits
"Twisted Metal Harbor City starring Needles, Mr. Grimm, Axel, Calypso, Miranda" Who the fuck is Miranda?


Was Miranda the driver of Twister in TMHO?  I can't remember.  

Obliverate, none of those vids are working for you?  The basic links are all at:

http://vimeo.com/user8991185/videos/rss


They all worked for me.  

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Mosh on 07/08/12 at 21:19:52

wrote on 07/08/12 at 21:13:33:
Was Miranda the driver of Twister in TMHO?  I can't remember.  


Ah, yeah, that's right, Miranda Watts drove Twister in TMHO.

Hmm..

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/08/12 at 21:23:43

MoshfieldAsylum wrote on 07/08/12 at 21:19:52:
Ah, yeah, that's right, Miranda Watts drove Twister in TMHO.

Hmm..


Maybe someone can tweet Dave and ask what these things are.  Someone he likes responding to.

You're up Mosh!

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/08/12 at 21:31:18
Double post but it's relevant.  I found out some more on the guy.  Check it out:

http://www.paduadesigns.com/

There's some more stuff from Twisted Metal worth seeing.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Infernal on 07/08/12 at 21:43:16
Very, very interesting stuff. I've been wondering if any of this stuff would ever show up.

That link you posted, Kilrahi, just gives me a bunch of scrambled characters. The other three, I was able to see the videos in them.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Obliverate on 07/08/12 at 21:48:17

wrote on 07/08/12 at 21:13:33:
Was Miranda the driver of Twister in TMHO?  I can't remember.  

Obliverate, none of those vids are working for you?  The basic links are all at:

http://vimeo.com/user8991185/videos/rss


They all worked for me.  

Only the second link didn't work.

This one is titled, "Calypso's Car"



So Calypso was a driver. Okay.

Grimm.



Looks like TMHO.

Sweet Tooth.



Looks like TMHO.



Okay, now stick with me here, this might be too crazy of an idea but...








TMHO is what TMB2 turned in to, and TMB2 was cancelled because Sony wanted a TM game on the PSP to sell it, and couldn't do TMB2 because then TMB would be on PS2 and TMB2 would be on PSP, so they took what they had of TMB2 and turned it into TMHO.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Mosh on 07/08/12 at 21:50:00
Calypso Car concept is a bit underwhelming

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Surgeon -Rymagician- on 07/08/12 at 23:24:47
Obliv-

I can see that happening.  I always felt that TMHO had some very TMBish elements to it- from Calypso, to ST Truck, to Grimm.  Makes alot of sense.

I agree that Calypso's car isn't very cool.  I don't like Calypso being a contestant.  Ever.  I honestly wish Sweet Tooth wasn't a contestant either.  Think of how much more badass he would be if he just drove around and killed all of the contestants, but never bothered to show up for his prize.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/08/12 at 23:34:32

Obliverate wrote on 07/08/12 at 21:48:17:
Only the second link didn't work.

This one is titled, "Calypso's Car"



So Calypso was a driver. Okay.

Grimm.



Looks like TMHO.

Sweet Tooth.


Looks like TMHO.
Okay, now stick with me here, this might be too crazy of an idea but...
TMHO is what TMB2 turned in to, and TMB2 was cancelled because Sony wanted a TM game on the PSP to sell it, and couldn't do TMB2 because then TMB would be on PS2 and TMB2 would be on PSP, so they took what they had of TMB2 and turned it into TMHO.


I was actually thinking pretty much the same thing and it's cool to see that you had the same idea.  Clearly when TMHO was started 3/4 of the way through TMB2 they already had some ideas about the story of TMB2 and how it was going to go down.  It's likely a lot of that bled over into TMHO.  Hell, Black is even referenced in that game.

Based on the vids, it looks like the first vid, where Sweet Tooth slashes the screen, was a test to get a feel for the universe and such.  It's called a "style case study."  

The Becker's Island video is really odd.  It's labelled a "storyboard" sequence which typically means it's not done, just a rough artists rendition of how a storyboard sequence in the game might have looked.  It also starts with text saying the last enemy has been destroyed, which would imply it's an ending sequence.  Could it have been Sweet Tooth's proposed ending from Harbor City?  

It seems plausible.  It's certainly disturbing for the black universe.

The mask test is really odd too.  Clearly Sweet Tooth is sitting on a pile of masks just like the one he always wears.  He also, for whatever reason, seems to be yanking them off only to find another one.

This seems like it could be an example of a wish gone bad with Calypso.  So . . . that would be an ending too, but . . . two endings?

Could it be that what we thought was a new idea for TM2012 (i.e. only a few characters) but with MULTIPLE endings have actually been thought of clear back in 2004 with TMB2?  

Fun to think about, but we'll probably never know.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/09/12 at 01:54:36
Well, every once in a while I go hunting to see if there's more info out there.  To a Twisted Metal: Black fan like me, any new tidbit of TMB2 is like a holy grail of "what ifs."  The game was pretty much done, and then it was buried.  How can that not put a stake through your heart?  Today's info was awesome to run into.

I did learn one other thing.  This is probably small potatoes from a sane perspective, but I hadn't noticed something on this page before:

http://kevinpulleyart.blogspot.com/2008/10/sony-computer-entertainment-of-america.html

One thing that always pissed me off about TMHO, and the TM that followed, is how many of Black's critically acclaimed ideas were buried and forgotten as if they were embarrassed about them or something.  Particularly one of Black’s most awesome ideas, skill weapons was forgotten.

I’ve never been able to figure out if Harbor City would have kept the skill weapons, which would indicate it was closer in spirit to Black, or ditched them like TMHO did, and among other things, embrace a more “good luck dodging this sucker” idea that TMHO ushered in.  
However, in some of the above pics, you clearly see the “zoomy” weapon listed.  That could be a sign it really was true to form with Black.  

Well, one final link for now.  These have probably been seen before too but it is worth repeating:

http://mileswoodsart.blogspot.com/2008/09/twisted-metal-black-2.html

I’m always struck by how proud of the game the team was.  At least in regards to those who worked on it for eighteen months, they felt it was a special game that should have been completed.  I 100% think that when they, at the eleventh hour, stuck in grand theft auto elements they fracked it all to hell, but I can’t help but feel the game was probably awesome before that happened.

Admit it, doesn’t it bug some of you to know sitting in a vault or on a shelf somewhere is a playable build of TMB2?  That will always drive me nuts.   I often wish when ESP did their $20 port of TMHO (which I loved) they had also just decided to pull TMB2 out of mothballs and slap it on there, unfinished or not.  Maybe they could have pasted the seams together and made it semi-workable.  I mean, it was clearly a fan effort anyway, why not?  Not like it would have hurt sales . . . money and time maybe . . . what if it’d helped sales though?  

Oh well.   That’s the neat part about being a fan.  You stay alive on “what ifs” and forever un-baked dreams.  

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Surgeon -Rymagician- on 07/09/12 at 02:31:05
I would compete in a real life Twisted Metal for that copy of TMB2.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Magnum on 07/09/12 at 07:13:27
Definately mind bending what ifs. Kinda depressing.

I still have TMHO PS2 disk with the playable demo of TMB2. My kids play it all the time. I sometimes play with them. It's sad to think of what could've been.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by RoaDiE on 07/09/12 at 11:27:21
Sadly though, that isnt TMB2. That is TMB Lost. It runs off TMHO engine and has all the fun (Shit) car/projectile physics of TMHO. Its essentially just TMHO playing with skins from TMB2 :(

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Luis on 07/09/12 at 13:56:13
I thought the reason why it's called Twisted Metal Lost is because Lost was suppose to be TMB2 but got canceled, meaning it's a lost TM.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by RoaDiE on 07/09/12 at 16:43:48
Yes. but what you play on the disc isnt really the gameplay that was in TMB2. The engine, physics are not there. Instead it just uses the TMHO engine entirely. So its just a TMB-skinned TMHO.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by The Dizaster Child on 07/09/12 at 18:04:38
Yeah, which is why it was disappointing to me since I saw all the Black ambiance, but then it felt like Head-On.

Stop with the what-if's, man! You're making ME depressed now lol.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Road-Kill_3197 on 07/09/12 at 23:42:27
Now, I've seen the majority of those Images a long time ago including the "mask test" vid. I never got around to posting them because I thought this was long discussed so I didn't want to look like a jackass reporting them. But the promo vid and the story board, that was all brand new to me, and it depresses me too. I saw the promo in tmho:ete too along with marrt, and hellbent lol.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/09/12 at 23:51:27

Road-Kill_3197 wrote on 07/09/12 at 23:42:27:
Now, I've seen the majority of those Images a long time ago including the "mask test" vid. I never got around to posting them because I thought this was long discussed so I didn't want to look like a jackass reporting them. But the promo vid and the story board, that was all brand new to me, and it depresses me too. I saw the promo in tmho:ete too along with marrt, and hellbent lol.


Do you remember where you found the mask test video?  I'm curious if it had other stuff I haven't seen.  

Yeah, if I remember right there were four fans in the documentary, and oddly enough they all ended up being from TMA.  The other two were Nightshade . . . and me.  Back when I was fat.

Life as a hardcore . . .

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Road-Kill_3197 on 07/09/12 at 23:58:47
I honestly do not remember, but it was either Flikr, or one of the ones already linked. But I was looking for tmps3 stuff right Before it came out( that's how I found sweet tooths C.O.C and leaked it here)
When I get home on saturday-Sunday I will try and find the page.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by The Dizaster Child on 07/10/12 at 14:02:53
Oh, so you were the fourth that I didn't recognise? Good to know lol. I thought it was one of many vets that had disappeared over the years.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/17/12 at 17:43:51
Thank you kilrahi so much for this. I really am ensanguined by the fact that all that hard work and possibly complete TMB2HC was scrapped. I can't imagine how intenesly close it was to being on shelves. I'll never fucking believe it, and never stop being vexed by it. Well, at least this helps with some of the closure to the deceased masterpiece. *sighs* I'm depressed now too...

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Archminion on 07/18/12 at 03:40:32
Calm down mate,

It can't have been that close.

It was never even officially announced.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/18/12 at 08:39:53
True, but you know, I went snooping around and found this flickr account of this guy, cor23 who claims he did some level design and textures on the game. He also mentions that the material used for TMHO:ETE's lost levels were minimal for what they could have included, indicating a substantial amount of finished or near finished work that could have feasibly made it into the copy. There was a plethora of train yard level sets, waterfront harbor settings. Mentions a few other people who also contributed to the work. He referenced to the Chinese downtown area photo I'm sure most of you have seen of Harbor City, saying that it was an extremely massive city level. I'm curious why many of these tidbits never made it into LOST. I couldn't help but feel compelled to write him a few questions, nonetheless, I didn't end up doing so. I didn't want my obsession to take hold of my sanity as I clenched to the reality that went so far into production all to waft into thin air. It's just tantalizing, like that catch phrase from Al Pacino in The Devil's Advocate, "Look but don't touch, taste but don't swallow". There are so many pieces to the story, it drives me mad is all.

So, are we coercing Mosh to tweet Jaffe about some of this stuff or what? :o

Edit: IMO, ESP should just gather all the unfinished work, complete the game and put it up on the psn. It could still be relevant.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by tmfan89 on 07/18/12 at 16:42:14

Zerathustra wrote on 07/18/12 at 08:39:53:
True, but you know, I went snooping around and found this flickr account of this guy, cor23 who claims he did some level design and textures on the game. He also mentions that the material used for TMHO:ETE's lost levels were minimal for what they could have included, indicating a substantial amount of finished or near finished work that could have feasibly made it into the copy. There was a plethora of train yard level sets, waterfront harbor settings. Mentions a few other people who also contributed to the work. He referenced to the Chinese downtown area photo I'm sure most of you have seen of Harbor City, saying that it was an extremely massive city level. I'm curious why many of these tidbits never made it into LOST. I couldn't help but feel compelled to write him a few questions, nonetheless, I didn't end up doing so. I didn't want my obsession to take hold of my sanity as I clenched to the reality that went so far into production all to waft into thin air. It's just tantalizing, like that catch phrase from Al Pacino in The Devil's Advocate, "Look but don't touch, taste but don't swallow". There are so many pieces to the story, it drives me mad is all.

So, are we coercing Mosh to tweet Jaffe about some of this stuff or what? :o

Edit: IMO, ESP should just gather all the unfinished work, complete the game and put it up on the psn. It could still be relevant.


Unless some crazy billionaire decides to pay Sony the complete development and publishing costs for ESP to finish the game and put it out on PSN its pretty much vaporware at this point.

Although I would love to see more leaked art, models, and concepts from anywhere. TMHC while likely no where near completed was likely about half way into development before it got shifted into TMHO.

There likely is enough art work and models to get a good picture of what the game was likely going to be like.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Ripzsaur on 07/18/12 at 16:58:45

tmfan89 wrote on 07/18/12 at 16:42:14:
Unless some crazy billionaire decides to pay Sony the complete development and publishing costs for ESP to finish the game and put it out on PSN its pretty much vaporware at this point.

Although I would love to see more leaked art, models, and concepts from anywhere. TMHC while likely no where near completed was likely about half way into development before it got shifted into TMHO.

There likely is enough art work and models to get a good picture of what the game was likely going to be like.

For me, seeing more of the game is like stabbing someone with a double-edged sword. I win but I'm hurt in the process.

I would love to see more of the game; anything at all. Then again, I don't want to see it because it makes me sad to think of the game that would have been the follow up to my favorite in the franchise. Why can't they just meld together loose ends and publish it on PSN? I couldn't see how that could hurt or be expensive. Scrap the on foot levels, and just rip out the core of what the Twisted franchise is and sear off the loose ends that were never completed. If they have animated story boards for all the characters; I'd be content with those as endings. No physics correctly in place? Rip the physics from TM:B. The cars have got to have been done at least by now, and there is obviously more level work than has been previously released with TM:L. Why can't they cram all of that into a small package and release it? I crave more information, but the info I seek is that only in playable form.

I would love to see on foot character models, further level design, etc; etc;.... but AFTER the fact of seeing what could have been first hand with a release of what is currently available. I'm not asking for more work, I'm asking for what is already made to just be slapped together. How is this not a good move? It's not too costly, not TOO much time and even if they sell it at 10$, everyone of us here would buy it in a heartbeat... and I'm sure several other people outside of TMA would too. I don't see why they haven't tried this already or how it could be a bad business opportunity.

Then again, who even owns the rights to the already developed material? Sony?


Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Archminion on 07/18/12 at 17:17:03
Corey Kruitbosch released a lot of stuff for HC and he was the guy who said they were so close.

It was still an early game though and I still have reason to believe that HC was a separate game from TMHO

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Ripzsaur on 07/18/12 at 17:18:57

Archminion wrote on 07/18/12 at 17:17:03:
Corey Kruitbosch released a lot of stuff for HC and he was the guy who said they were so close.

It was still an early game though and I still have reason to believe that HC was a separate game from TMHO

Then why doesn't he patch together everything there is and release it for a quick buck?

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/18/12 at 17:26:25
That's how I feel too. Anything! Glue it together somehow, something is better than nothing! Excuse my nearsighted vigor but,... I mean, what were they doing back in 2007 when they scrapped together 4 meager areas and labeled them "levels"? They apparantly had the right to use that subjective material, I'm not certain if owning the rights was an issue to release the Harbor City related subject matter...

What I do ask is, what were they doing? They had enough time to create a documentary (loved it btw), tell us they were working on TMPS3, but didn't get enough of a chance to mold together but grains of what truely exists of this now considered relic of the past? Yes, I'm thankful to my core for TMPS3, but it took immensely more to conjure the combined effort for that than it would have to complete Harbor City. Did Sony honestly think TMHO was important enough to hault Habor City's production in order to sell more psp's? What kind of business management is that? The psp flopped anyway, the Vita following that demise and the best way to recuperate the franchise while the audience was waiting was a port of TMHO? Some of this looks flimsy to me, what's the big deal?!

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Mr.SLaM on 07/18/12 at 17:26:58
Becuase life doesn't work that way. Big buisness looks for the most popular product and milk the hell out of it. Its like asking why they never just don't put all of the levels and characters from a game into its sequal. It never happens and if it does, its either modded in or you have to pay. I wish videogames did work that way. It would be nice to play on all of the maps from every other Call of Duty. But they don't, they want $$$$.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Ripzsaur on 07/18/12 at 17:33:43
I agree. I assuming we've all seen this link to Corey's old blog back in 2007, but here it is. He took it down so it's just a single page.

http://www.hivemind.com/pages/pics_pro-games-tmHC.htm

He states that there is "enough kickass material to make a whole game".

and originally, TM:L was supposed to include 5 to 7 levels. That information came straight from Jaffe's blog. There are 5 to 7 levels out there that I feel should be released. I'm just in awe that they (as Zera stated) didn't try to keep TM:HC alive by releasing it with TM:HO port. I would substitute TM:HO for TM:HC if given the opportunity. Hell, I'd pay someone to allow me to do that.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/18/12 at 17:36:04
That's where big business loses money though. They hinder it dry until it wields no more fruit. You have to replenish your stock before you start butchering and harvesting again. That's why you have big money run the show, while the creative source dwindles idley beneath it, giving it the tit only every so often to make it crave more, starving, and the work then suffers while selling less.

It has to be possible,... it has to be. *clasps at the sky*

TMA is alive for BLACK, that's why it was created, then we all got smerfed out of it's sequel. Makes no sense at all...

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Ripzsaur on 07/18/12 at 17:45:36

Mr.SLaM wrote on 07/18/12 at 17:26:58:
Big buisness looks for the most popular product and milk the hell out of it.

This is why I hate big businesses....

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/18/12 at 17:47:09
I am stunned! They had that much of the game far along, almost ALPHA?!?!? Wow, wow, wow,.... that hurts. Fucking Sony. Wow...

Is this really one of those incidents where, no matter how much you scream, no one can hear you from space?!

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Archminion on 07/18/12 at 18:38:00
Firstly Mr. K doesn't own any of this stuff so he couldn't just 'patch' it altogether and throw it out there for us.

Also when Jaffe stated that there were '5 to 7 levels' you all need to think about this again.

There are at least 2 levels used for the Sweet Tour segment so those likely make up the rest of the lost stuff that Jaffe wanted to use.

He's never stated that these were vehicular levels.

Finally when you think about it maybe HC was scrapped because it weren't that great?

TMHO is solid.
TMPS3 is solid (offline anyway).

Maybe along with the on foot levels HC might have killed the franchise quicker?

Also please read Jaffe's very latest tweets for some depressing (but realistic) views from the guy on TM in general.

:|

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/18/12 at 18:52:39
Woah, hang on, he mentioned play mechanics not being the primary poise of his concern in the future possibly. So, not entirely bad, but not good either I guess.

I love the on-foot idea of Harbor City, I'm envious and would have loved to see how it turned out. I always wanted a different way to explore the Twisted Metal Black universe and that concept answers my prayers.

I think we all would have found difinitive enjoyment in the on-foot missions honestly. That is partly what makes me so obsessed in Harbor City.

Does anyone realize that jaffe never worked on harbor city?

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Ripzsaur on 07/18/12 at 19:49:22

Zerathustra wrote on 07/18/12 at 18:52:39:
Woah, hang on, he mentioned play mechanics not being the primary poise of his concern in the future possibly. So, not entirely bad, but not good either I guess.

I love the on-foot idea of Harbor City, I'm envious and would have loved to see how it turned out. I always wanted a different way to explore the Twisted Metal Black universe and that concept answers my prayers.

I think we all would have found difinitive enjoyment in the on-foot missions honestly. That is partly what makes me so obsessed in Harbor City.

Does anyone realize that jaffe never worked on harbor city?

Really?  :o

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/18/12 at 20:32:27
I tweeted him about Harbor City, and the response blew my mind as well. So, it looks like the old incog team that later came to a close, lacked a Jaffe some where during it's dismount.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Ripzsaur on 07/18/12 at 21:58:50
wow that surprises me. I wonder why it lacked jaffe. Did he mention?

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/18/12 at 22:08:46
No mention, perhaps someone else can try? I may have run out of grace, but I don't know for certain lol. I'm really interested...Tweet him Ripzsaur, be concise presumably.   :)

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Ripzsaur on 07/18/12 at 22:20:37
I might just do that. See what kind of information I might be able to find out for us TM:HC junkies.  ;D

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/18/12 at 22:30:15
It's worth a shot, what he has in his brain is more than what you'll get on a lucky surf around the net. I'm on a detective excursion, maybe I'll start an epidemic. Of course, I can't take all the credit, Kilrahi started the post lol.

I wonder if it was merely the ESP team that created TMHO that was responsible for TMHC with Scott being the lead in design... This I did ask, with no response from Jaffe.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/18/12 at 23:37:51
Okay, look, every time I start posting stuff that gets detailed about this I think it wigs TMA admins out and they scrap it.

I wish rather than delete whole damn posts though when they do that they'd just delete my one reply and private message me to shut up, but here are some "opinions" of mine gleaned from a few Incog team members who spoke off the record, as well as just some facts in general.  Now, while it is entirely possible, and likely, that there are some things below that are assumptions, and some bunk or just crap based on other people's opinions (or perspectives), I guarantee you a good portion of it is fact, or pretty damn close to how it all went.  So, there you go, read and enjoy.  

1.  No, Dave Jaffe had nothing to do with TMB2.  He was aware of it, and even came by TMA once to hint about it (he referred to it as secrets that the good folks at Incognito were cooking up for us that it was not his business to spill the beans on).  Keep in mind his interest in Twisted Metal has, and I don't mean this as an attack, came and went with time.  At the time of TMB2 he was not interested in another Twisted Metal and was instead hard at work on God of War.

Also, and most people seem to miss this, he was NOT a part of Incognito.  He was a part of Sony Santa Monica Studios.  They were two separate groups.  


2.  Twisted Metal Black: 2 was nearly completed.  It didn't have one or two levels, it was a whole damn city, and according to several on the team it functioned amazingly well with very little slowdown.

Some basic car models were clearly done (though keep in mind they probably planned and could have used many of the models from Black with touched up finishes).  

3.  At the 9th hour the higher ups at Incognito (read: Scott Campbell) freaked out about TM's viability.

This seems to be a trend they started after Black.  Apparently a million selling greatest hits is a reason to crap your pants.  Further, even though TMHO sold well enough even though it was put together sloppily, they still freaked out.

At any rate, like many game companies of the time they worried the only way to make a game "viable" was to slap Grand Theft Auto on it.

It's similar to what many game companies do now where they slap "Call of Duty" on it (see new TM game).  

So they tried incorporating on foot elements which according to few on the team who spoke on it, and in my opinion, was a bad idea.  

4.  Twisted Metal Black: 2 was halted 3/4 of the way through production to throw together TMHO at Sony's request.  The plan was to then go back and finish TMB2.

5.  By the time TMHO was finished Incog found itself with a few dilemmas.  Rumor mill says Scott and a few other higher ups were sick of Twisted Metal.  Furthermore, Warhawk was way bloated (i.e. over budget on time and money) and they desperately needed to save that whale (which Dylan Jobe, my personal hero, did).  

Furthermore, Dave Jaffe came in and was interested in doing a PSP game (Heartland).  

So, despite it being very VERY close to done, and despite 18 months of work and money, and despite the fact it probably would have been one of their best selling titles (which Incog seriously needed after a few years of snoozers) they scrapped Twisted Metal to focus on finishing Warhawk and Heartland.

6.  Unfortunately it sounds like the team at Incognito really didn't jive with Dave's ideas on Heartland (this seems to be a reoccurring motif with them).  So, it was shit canned.

The majority of the team focused on saving Warhawk.  This involved gutting its lacking single player to instead make it's killer online mode.

What was left on Incognito finished up the respectable "Calling All Cars" (which for reason I have never understood, ESP seems to always take the credit for . . . I'm sure they were mostly the same peeps but seriously, WTF).  

7.  Dave and Scott, and a ton of Incognito, then bail on Incognito to form ESP.  Around this time, and probably not coincidentally, the server for TMBO is killed.  

It was probably running on a computer in Incog's basement and it went out when the power went out.  

8.  By August 2007, and at the release of Warhawk, Incognito had about 6 people on the team.  Kirk Baum, a TM and internet genius, who wore his love for all things TM on his sleeves, left Incognito pretty much the week or so before release day.

Game comes out; the last of the once great Incognito dies shortly after that . . .

And that folks, is the rest of the story.  


One thing I think that has to be clear and said about TMB2.  Every single person of the team who has ever spoken about it communicates that they thought it was awesome, would be the best Twisted Metal ever, and that they were quite proud of it.  Furthermore, it is implied, if not outright said sometimes, that it was one of those "stupid upper management" things that got it shit canned that we will all experience from time to time in our own jobs.  You know the kind I mean!

So who do you believe?  Those who canned it and say it was a good decision, or those who worked on it and said it wasn't.

Both are biased.  Of course teams are invested in what they do and believe in it, and hate to see it get cancelled for any reason.  Of course, managers are notorious for being egocentric and having to interpret every decision they ever make, even dumb ones, as part of some divine plan.  Both have biases.

Personally, I believe the team.  Bad decision to shit can.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/19/12 at 02:29:08
That's it! I'm writing Eat Sleep Play!!!! Assuming they aren't dead, someone has to see it right? ESP.biz, here fanboydome comes to hail blaze!

Seriously, Scott, without being pejorative, seems like the freakout type in a way. I wonder where the material went, or is?! What does a company do with a 3/4 complete game? How do you just 'delete' that much production? Did they assume we were going to take this very well, and importantly not gripe or write them possibly? IDK

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Road-Kill_3197 on 07/19/12 at 02:37:49
Well, this depresses me even more. But you know what it happens to the best. What I mean is this is't the only well anticipated game that got shot down. I was so ampt for Fear Effect inferno when it was announced, I never found out the details on what happend to that game *sigh*.

Edit* ^ yep ESP went under, or on the verge of it.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/19/12 at 03:06:00
Well, I wrote them, considering the fact that their website and twitter is still up, I gave it a shot and hopefully will get something of a response at least in return. I really don't know how futile my efforts are, but not knowing is what makes this fun for me in the first place. :)

I feel saddened, the ESP twitter lacked much activity compared to Jaffe's. There many tweets that never got responded to, I feel bad. :(

I really don't think I have the guts to make a false LINKEDIN profile just to write Scott, lol, I know that sounds bizarre and immaturely mischievous but sometimes you gotta' pull strings as they say. Don't worry, I won't! *Throws hands up at Admins*

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Archminion on 07/19/12 at 03:46:54
I'm just not sure what ppl expect to come of this?

It's a dead game and had little success of being restarted at a later date even if TMps3 had been perfect.

I was getting emails from 'Incog Guy' long after TMHO had come out and though I don't know if that stuff was genuine I think we can agree that at the time the name Harbor City wasn't in common knowledge around here?

The best thing I can say is I am actively looking for some code if it still exists and would buy it if the chance appeared.

Releasing it though?

Probably a very different matter...


On an unrelated matter ESP are in fact sadly dead.

I hear there was another train crash...

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/19/12 at 04:11:27
Very authentic Arch, but, I'm addicted, and how do you deter an addict?
You just don't lol. I don't know what I expect really. I'm in fantasy land, can't help if I go over the edge from here. I know it seems way lost, but I'm not the kind that gives up even when he's holding his own entrails in his hands.

People have done more miraculous things out there in the world, what makes this seem so impossible next to what's 'improbable'? Beside this, it's like we might as well become devs ourselves, come out with the same game with a different name. lol I know I'm crazy

The age of technology just makes it too easy to try, lowly bums get famous on youtube for the love of G@d.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Archminion on 07/19/12 at 04:22:35
This is also one game that has sort of being released already.

Sony would say that we got TM:L which I know is not an absolute substitute but it does contain some material from TM:HC.

I think they would say:

"be happy with that".

I don't see a problem with optimism though.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/19/12 at 17:41:50
I guess what I realistically expect is info out of my efforts. I know they went in and modded the HC material, why can't they do it again, just with more intention of completion?

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Archminion on 07/19/12 at 18:01:28
Would it be worth it from a business point of view?

I'd love for the old guys to get together and decide to finish the game as a fan project.

The license would be the main issue.

The only tiny (I might microscopic) chance we ever have of seeing TMB2 in the wild is if the proto is leaked (possible if the code still remains or was burnt to rom).

OR if it's is finished and legitimately released as part of a TM collection.

I don't think a TM collection is unlikely but one that contains HC as it was meant to be is pretty moot imo.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by tmfan89 on 07/19/12 at 18:02:10

wrote on 07/18/12 at 23:37:51:
Okay, look, every time I start posting stuff that gets detailed about this I think it wigs TMA admins out and they scrap it.

I wish rather than delete whole damn posts though when they do that they'd just delete my one reply and private message me to shut up, but here are some "opinions" of mine gleaned from a few Incog team members who spoke off the record, as well as just some facts in general.  Now, while it is entirely possible, and likely, that there are some things below that are assumptions, and some bunk or just crap based on other people's opinions (or perspectives), I guarantee you a good portion of it is fact, or pretty damn close to how it all went.  So, there you go, read and enjoy.  

1.  No, Dave Jaffe had nothing to do with TMB2.  He was aware of it, and even came by TMA once to hint about it (he referred to it as secrets that the good folks at Incognito were cooking up for us that it was not his business to spill the beans on).  Keep in mind his interest in Twisted Metal has, and I don't mean this as an attack, came and went with time.  At the time of TMB2 he was not interested in another Twisted Metal and was instead hard at work on God of War.

Also, and most people seem to miss this, he was NOT a part of Incognito.  He was a part of Sony Santa Monica Studios.  They were two separate groups.  


2.  Twisted Metal Black: 2 was nearly completed.  It didn't have one or two levels, it was a whole damn city, and according to several on the team it functioned amazingly well with very little slowdown.

Some basic car models were clearly done (though keep in mind they probably planned and could have used many of the models from Black with touched up finishes).  

3.  At the 9th hour the higher ups at Incognito (read: Scott Campbell) freaked out about TM's viability.

This seems to be a trend they started after Black.  Apparently a million selling greatest hits is a reason to crap your pants.  Further, even though TMHO sold well enough even though it was put together sloppily, they still freaked out.

At any rate, like many game companies of the time they worried the only way to make a game "viable" was to slap Grand Theft Auto on it.

It's similar to what many game companies do now where they slap "Call of Duty" on it (see new TM game).  

So they tried incorporating on foot elements which according to few on the team who spoke on it, and in my opinion, was a bad idea.  

4.  Twisted Metal Black: 2 was halted 3/4 of the way through production to throw together TMHO at Sony's request.  The plan was to then go back and finish TMB2.

5.  By the time TMHO was finished Incog found itself with a few dilemmas.  Rumor mill says Scott and a few other higher ups were sick of Twisted Metal.  Furthermore, Warhawk was way bloated (i.e. over budget on time and money) and they desperately needed to save that whale (which Dylan Jobe, my personal hero, did).  

Furthermore, Dave Jaffe came in and was interested in doing a PSP game (Heartland).  

So, despite it being very VERY close to done, and despite 18 months of work and money, and despite the fact it probably would have been one of their best selling titles (which Incog seriously needed after a few years of snoozers) they scrapped Twisted Metal to focus on finishing Warhawk and Heartland.

6.  Unfortunately it sounds like the team at Incognito really didn't jive with Dave's ideas on Heartland (this seems to be a reoccurring motif with them).  So, it was shit canned.

The majority of the team focused on saving Warhawk.  This involved gutting its lacking single player to instead make it's killer online mode.

What was left on Incognito finished up the respectable "Calling All Cars" (which for reason I have never understood, ESP seems to always take the credit for . . . I'm sure they were mostly the same peeps but seriously, WTF).  

7.  Dave and Scott, and a ton of Incognito, then bail on Incognito to form ESP.  Around this time, and probably not coincidentally, the server for TMBO is killed.  

It was probably running on a computer in Incog's basement and it went out when the power went out.  

8.  By August 2007, and at the release of Warhawk, Incognito had about 6 people on the team.  Kirk Baum, a TM and internet genius, who wore his love for all things TM on his sleeves, left Incognito pretty much the week or so before release day.

Game comes out; the last of the once great Incognito dies shortly after that . . .

And that folks, is the rest of the story.  


One thing I think that has to be clear and said about TMB2.  Every single person of the team who has ever spoken about it communicates that they thought it was awesome, would be the best Twisted Metal ever, and that they were quite proud of it.  Furthermore, it is implied, if not outright said sometimes, that it was one of those "stupid upper management" things that got it shit canned that we will all experience from time to time in our own jobs.  You know the kind I mean!

So who do you believe?  Those who canned it and say it was a good decision, or those who worked on it and said it wasn't.

Both are biased.  Of course teams are invested in what they do and believe in it, and hate to see it get cancelled for any reason.  Of course, managers are notorious for being egocentric and having to interpret every decision they ever make, even dumb ones, as part of some divine plan.  Both have biases.

Personally, I believe the team.  Bad decision to shit can.


Campbell and company should have known better than to add on foot levels to TMB2. If people want to play GTA they will play GTA. TM might not have a huge audience but it has a loyal and dedicated following that wants car combat.

TM fans want TM, and if the game was 75% complete they should have just finished the game (Sans on foot levels of course) and followed up on the success of TMB and TMBO. TMB sold a million copies and TMBO distributed the game a lot more.

Sucks how they were afraid of TM's viability despite the modest success of TMB. If they built a giant city and new car models as well as had functioning code than they clearly missed out on a chance to finish a great game.

Would love for them to leak the games remaining code to some of the more hardcore and tech savvy members of TMA. Not saying the game could be finished but maybe we could get a good idea of what the game was going to be and maybe it could be functional on some level to see exactly what they were going for game play wise.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Archminion on 07/19/12 at 18:22:17
Or just sell it to me.

I like to hang around the proto forums and I know what kind of price range unreleased games tend to move around for.


If any hard-up ex Incog staffer has the game pm me...

:)

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by RoaDiE on 07/19/12 at 18:22:38

wrote on 07/18/12 at 23:37:51:
  Kirk Baum, a TM and internet genius, who wore his love for all things TM on his sleeves, left Incognito pretty much the week or so before release day.


In Kirk Baum we trust. ;D



Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/19/12 at 21:28:47
Yeah . . . there's nothing that can be done.  Seriously.  This happens fairly often in the video game world to many, many games.  Occasionally one gets leaked, but . . .

Here are a few things to keep in mind:

1.  ESP could NOT help you at all.  They are not a part of Sony, and were they to leak the code, there's a very high risk they would be sued seven ways from Sunday.

Further, do they even have the game?  I suppose for this question it appears that at one point they did, or at least a large part of it, as evidence by Jaffe's own comments here:

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/2007/09/level-design-mix-and-match.html

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2008/01/interview-david/

Clearly he played around in it.  Do they still have it?  Dunno.



2.  What would a nearly done Twisted Metal game actually mean?

This is an important question, and I think it's the critical one.  While I believe it's absolutely true the game was nearly done, I'm certain it doesn't mean that there was a product that you could actually stick in a PS2 and play.  Consider:

1.  At one point on foot code was begun but not completed.  Where is this part of the game?  Does it interrupt if you play a level?  

2.  Can you play a level?  I'm confidant you could select the big ass city they built, and drive around in it, but . . . it doesn't look like they ever added computer AI and enemy cars so . . . what would you do?  I guess it would be a massive peep show.

3.  Speaking of drive around, in what cars?  So far the only cars ever shown exploring the level are Roadkill and Spectre.


Start to see the problems?  A nearly complete game (80% maybe?) in chunks . . . is still a nearly complete game in chunks.  Were all the cars nearly finished BUT on a seperate drive?  Were there even levels at all and so would it just be one big empty city?

This is awesome crap to explore, for sure, and if they'd wanted to do an even better job than they did on TMHO:ETE they would have had a bonus unlockable section entitled, "The rest of the crap," but it never happened, and now that Twisted Metal appears dead, I don't think it ever will.


One thing I was very bummed about, they promised they'd be far more honest in the documentary than most documentarys on TMHO:ETE, and they were, and in fact, were very upfront about 989.  However, there isn't as much risk there as they weren't a part of that team.  As fun as the fake story about the plane crash was, I was always very disapointed they didn't give the real story and more detail on TMB2, like running video of what they'd made.  Damn.   :'(

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Ripzsaur on 07/19/12 at 21:46:53
well say on a chance they wanted to bring it back... Couldn't they just copy and paste any missing code for cars/ai from TMB? and if the code for the on foot area isn't done... Scrap it. I'd pay 100 dollars just for the Harbor City section of the game itself (car combat portion is what I'm talking about.) To see all the new enviorments and what they had done so far is enough for me... Without the huge changes they made to the formula.

I don't think this will ever happen but I can always hope.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/19/12 at 22:44:19
What jaffe says so much in those links about ground work and fenestration of the levels they did for LOST seems considerably extensive. Yet, when I play those levels, the texture work and interest scheme of the levels were really shallow IMO. I respect the work the art team and jaffe himself did on those, but they didn't seems to flow or function right. I know they were incomplete to begin with and merely structured through an artistic standpoint, but they just don't qualify as levels to me. I,wonder why they didn't bother using the train yard and the downtiwn-china town districts we know of? Hell, even the ghetto and slums look far more done than the ones we got. How did they convince Sony to reuse or revitalize the HC stuff in the first place? Seems a little random or abrupt to propose maybe?

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by RoaDiE on 07/19/12 at 23:55:12
Snagged quote from that old interview.


Quote:
One of the things that we did on Lost is, I went back and ripped out about 30 percent of the variety of pickups. Because I realized that in Black, we simply had too many weapon options for the player to the point that everything ended up getting diluted. Every pickup felt like it had the same value




Uhh... too many pickups and it was diluted? Then how come in the new game they added like a dozen and that was REALLY diluted.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/20/12 at 00:07:58
I felt like that quote was peculiar too. I admit that in a "few" areas in Black like the freeway level had about two or three too many skill based weapons, or were simply too close to each other, the prison passage also, but that's IT, nothing more than that.

Beside that, I realize Scott may be a little more of a Twisted Metal enthusiast than Jaffe, respectfully, considering he made two, almost THREE car combat games without Jaffe.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by tmfan89 on 07/20/12 at 00:47:50

wrote on 07/19/12 at 21:28:47:
Yeah . . . there's nothing that can be done.  Seriously.  This happens fairly often in the video game world to many, many games.  Occasionally one gets leaked, but . . .

Here are a few things to keep in mind:

1.  ESP could NOT help you at all.  They are not a part of Sony, and were they to leak the code, there's a very high risk they would be sued seven ways from Sunday.

Further, do they even have the game?  I suppose for this question it appears that at one point they did, or at least a large part of it, as evidence by Jaffe's own comments here:

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/2007/09/level-design-mix-and-match.html

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2008/01/interview-david/

Clearly he played around in it.  Do they still have it?  Dunno.



2.  What would a nearly done Twisted Metal game actually mean?

This is an important question, and I think it's the critical one.  While I believe it's absolutely true the game was nearly done, I'm certain it doesn't mean that there was a product that you could actually stick in a PS2 and play.  Consider:

1.  At one point on foot code was begun but not completed.  Where is this part of the game?  Does it interrupt if you play a level?  

2.  Can you play a level?  I'm confidant you could select the big ass city they built, and drive around in it, but . . . it doesn't look like they ever added computer AI and enemy cars so . . . what would you do?  I guess it would be a massive peep show.

3.  Speaking of drive around, in what cars?  So far the only cars ever shown exploring the level are Roadkill and Spectre.


Start to see the problems?  A nearly complete game (80% maybe?) in chunks . . . is still a nearly complete game in chunks.  Were all the cars nearly finished BUT on a seperate drive?  Were there even levels at all and so would it just be one big empty city?

This is awesome crap to explore, for sure, and if they'd wanted to do an even better job than they did on TMHO:ETE they would have had a bonus unlockable section entitled, "The rest of the crap," but it never happened, and now that Twisted Metal appears dead, I don't think it ever will.


One thing I was very bummed about, they promised they'd be far more honest in the documentary than most documentarys on TMHO:ETE, and they were, and in fact, were very upfront about 989.  However, there isn't as much risk there as they weren't a part of that team.  As fun as the fake story about the plane crash was, I was always very disapointed they didn't give the real story and more detail on TMB2, like running video of what they'd made.  Damn.   :'(


IF someone who use to work at Incognito had a copy of all or most of the work done on the game stored on a flash drive and they decided to fuck the consequences and just leak it to someone here it wouldn't really be that fans could complete the game, but rather that we could see how the levels were shaping up and how some of the new car models were being arranged.

The game is lost, but just as a fan it would be really cool to see as much as possible and get a sense of where the game was headed and such. Seeing how the free ways were intended to connect the levels, seeing models and sketches for possible bosses would be a cool experience for the fans.

I wounder how much concept art and story notes were made for this game.


Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by RoaDiE on 07/20/12 at 00:52:06
Heres another that made me cringe:


Quote:
I look back at Twisted Metal 2, where I was doing some of the design, and there really was more of a sense of here is the upper-class suburbian home area, but the only way to get there is to take this winding, curvy road. Bottleneck areas, open arena areas, areas that flow into each other but only in very constrictive ways. Like if you want to shoot somebody and he runs into, say, the movie theater, there’s only two places he can come out, and there’s a vantage point where you can fire, where you can sit and wait and hit him at either end depending on how he comes out.

More standoffs, more bottlenecks. Building chase scenarios, building places where you can fight over the best pickups.




From my experience, the worst levels typically have been the ones hes describing here: Windy roads, bottlenecks, really are not conducive of car combat.

Evidence: Highway Loop aka the worst level in TM history. Second place = Snowy Roads

Freedom of movement is essential to the game play experience, half of good car combat is shooting but movement and angles of approach is the other half. If you are forced to play in a tiny lane, you are essentially using/working with a forward and backwards only playing motion. Boring.

Not to mention, the games do not flow well with bottlenecks either. You want a map where the action takes place in various locations and one area can easily access the next, so the player never knows where something (a weapon or an enemy car) might come at them from.

The most played, well liked maps? Typically they have been the more open ones.

Power Plant, Suburbs, Sewers, Junkyard, Moscow, Paris, LA Roofs...

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/20/12 at 01:19:30
I like snowy roads, I understand why many deplore highway loop; it's bland and there's no real complexity to it, there should have been more interspersed passages IMO.

Harbor City looks like, if it had been completed, to have had many open space levels like black. I always dreamed of a TM with the interconnected level system. I remember writing posts at the previous TMA about how awesome that would be, before I knew of HC. Goes to show you it's a good idea, as many did agree. It's a shame, I guess I'm the minority that thinks the foot missions would have made the level changes a genius enterprise in tandem with eachother. A large connected world with intimate experiences as the characters themselves.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Archminion on 07/20/12 at 02:17:54
Yes I was bummed about the interview too.

Would have loved some HC info and while many of the fans like (love?) TMSB many others including myself believe it's one of the weaker Incog entries.

Other than one brief action clip that game wasn't even mentioned...very strange.

And Rip: so you'd pay $100 for the driving sections of HC?

I'm sure you'll have ex coders queing up for that price...

;D

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/20/12 at 03:06:25
I'm curious,... What's necessarily significant of Kirk Baum exactly? Care to tell Kil? Or anyone?

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by tmfan89 on 07/20/12 at 20:43:55

RoaDiE wrote on 07/20/12 at 00:52:06:
Heres another that made me cringe:




From my experience, the worst levels typically have been the ones hes describing here: Windy roads, bottlenecks, really are not conducive of car combat.

Evidence: Highway Loop aka the worst level in TM history. Second place = Snowy Roads

Freedom of movement is essential to the game play experience, half of good car combat is shooting but movement and angles of approach is the other half. If you are forced to play in a tiny lane, you are essentially using/working with a forward and backwards only playing motion. Boring.

Not to mention, the games do not flow well with bottlenecks either. You want a map where the action takes place in various locations and one area can easily access the next, so the player never knows where something (a weapon or an enemy car) might come at them from.

The most played, well liked maps? Typically they have been the more open ones.

Power Plant, Suburbs, Sewers, Junkyard, Moscow, Paris, LA Roofs...


I always liked a blend of the two, kind of why Sun Springs is my favorite map in TMPS3.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/20/12 at 21:11:05

Zerathustra wrote on 07/20/12 at 03:06:25:
I'm curious,... What's necessarily significant of Kirk Baum exactly? Care to tell Kil? Or anyone?


You mean why is he so cool?

Absolutely.  One thing that I think TM 2012 has really emphasized for me is that no one person can really be responsible for the greatness of what a game is.  They are HUGE projects, and we tend to focus far too much on just the big names involved.

Maybe TM 2012 is your fave game of the series.  If that is true, it wasn't just Dave or Scott that were involved, it was a huge team.  In fact, the group that actually creates the guts of what we all love, makes that vision happen, is never the Scotts or Daves of the group.  They dream it, others interpret it and make it.  Dave would certainly agree to this statement, so I'm not saying anything new to him but it may be new to some of us.

So it is with the old Twisted Metals.  It's no surprise to me anymore that TM 2012 was not my fave, and in fact, it's no surprise to me that a lot of the things the fans loved about the past games Dave and Scott seemed to be unaware those traits even existed.  Many, many people who made TM, TM2, and TMB successful were not a part of the ESP effort.

Kirk Baum is one of those peeps.  He was involved in TM1, TM2, several Singletrac games, and TMB/TMBO.  He was also a lead network guru on Warhawk.  

One thing that was awesome about Kirk was he showed a deep deference and respect for the fan base.  He would not only come to TMA and post amongst us and get us hyped about the game on a pretty regular basis, but he would actually PLAY with TMA, online for MONTHS or perhaps even YEARS.  That type of dedication was just awesome to be a part of.  When TMHO came out and many of us had trouble connecting, he appeared on TMA and helped walk us through it.  

Finally, he is literally the savior of TMBO.  One of Sony's biggest epic fails for their first online releases on the PS2 is that they were afraid to give any type of chat functionality at all to any of the games that weren't rated M (probably because they were worried it would mean the game was miss-rated when peeps cussed up a storm - in fact if you read their boxes now they say online interactions may change the game rating).  

So, when TMBO came out they ordered Incognito to gut the chat code, and for the first three months the player base believed there was no chat.  Had this continued, the game would have died a much earlier death.  However, as legend has it, Kirk (as far as I know he has never admitted to this, but we all believe it was him) ignored that order and left a code in the North American release that would activate the chat.  Legend has it he also got in trouble for it (it's not in the European release that came after).

So, he's a hero.  'Nuff said.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by -Stitches- on 07/21/12 at 00:14:31
Also, long ago, Kirk promised he'd keep the server up for as long as he could, and it stayed around until Incog disbanded. Four and a half years of good good times. I'll raise a glass for Kirk anytime.

There were a lot of other cool Incog guys back then too. I sometimes played one on ones with Nathan Martinez and Steve Ceragioli. Awesome games, and great memories. I remember Mike Bartholomew and Nathan Martinez did some awesome informative TMA posts. I  wish I remembered more.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Road-Kill_3197 on 07/21/12 at 00:49:41
  Ah, all you TMA vets have great stories of twisted legend, so to speek. I wish I new of TMA back in 2002 ( that's when I first got black). I didnt find out about TMA untill 2006, back when it was a more structured site. Back when there was a section for each TM tittle, fanart, and funny TM caption pics. Does anyone have any of those old pics laying on their hard drive? Oooo like that one of warhawk saying "million dolor flight-suit you just blasted a shit in, PRICELESS!" ahhh nostalgia.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Archminion on 07/21/12 at 01:07:56
2 things come to mind here:

1. Kirk B reminds me of the classic Atari programmers who would secretly leave easter eggs (credits or small features) in their games against managements permission back in the early 80's.

(I loved this btw)

2. It also makes me wonder what would happen if Kirk were to lead up a TM project?

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Magnum on 07/21/12 at 09:09:56
I remember the 1st time "chat" was discovered in TMBO. Seriously WTF?? How the fuck?

There it was. Someone in the room going to "chat" and back. What made it so messed up is, if you didn't know how, you had to make rooms in the lobby litterally named "chat=R1L1R1L1R1" or something like that so everyone that didn't know could see it.

And my God what a pain in the ass if you didn't use a USB KB. Once you knew you could KB it, it made the game much more fun belive it or not. Not only could you talk shit or whatever as fast as you could type but, it made a huge difference and made it alot easier.

It was even more fun getting around the censor filter too, to find ways to cuss without it blanking it out. Some regular words in the English language were censored too that were not cuss words at all. It was really funny.

SH8!! F()CK!! R@PE!! B0LWM3!! etc etc etc....

I wonder if that was really the start of "text speak" as we know it due to the fact that wasn't really around at that point in time. Could TMA started the text speak revolution??

:D

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by tmfan89 on 07/21/12 at 11:55:35

Archminion wrote on 07/21/12 at 01:07:56:
2 things come to mind here:

1. Kirk B reminds me of the classic Atari programmers who would secretly leave easter eggs (credits or small features) in their games against managements permission back in the early 80's.

(I loved this btw)

2. It also makes me wonder what would happen if Kirk were to lead up a TM project?


From what I have heard the guy seems like he had a real passion for his work on TM.

I did a quick google search on the guy and his linkedin account and he seems to be working with Disney now on their video games. Sad to see he couldn't have worked on TMPS3 and added that passion to that game.



Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Thumpy on 07/21/12 at 16:53:08
He was cool to chat with.

I remember chatting with Kirk back in 2000 in the TMA chat room.

I asked him if he could add the 'Pope mobile' in the next game, he then told me that the pope would not fit very well in a combat game.

This might have lead to the 'Brimestone' character but I have no confirmation of that.

It would be cool if someone at TMA was able to contact him somehow.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Road-Kill_3197 on 07/21/12 at 22:18:23
Lets have a séance...
:P

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by WsDharsh on 07/22/12 at 04:41:26
Damnit!  you guys make me jealous with your fun times. :(

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Kilrahi on 07/22/12 at 10:44:44

Thumpy wrote on 07/21/12 at 16:53:08:
He was cool to chat with.

I remember chatting with Kirk back in 2000 in the TMA chat room.

I asked him if he could add the 'Pope mobile' in the next game, he then told me that the pope would not fit very well in a combat game.

This might have lead to the 'Brimestone' character but I have no confirmation of that.

It would be cool if someone at TMA was able to contact him somehow.


At the beginning of 2008 I actually managed to contact him and he was going to answer some questions we had about TMB and TMBO on TMA, but then the original server went down and I lost track of him.

Bummer.  

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by tmfan89 on 07/22/12 at 13:02:17

wrote on 07/22/12 at 10:44:44:
At the beginning of 2008 I actually managed to contact him and he was going to answer some questions we had about TMB and TMBO on TMA, but then the original server went down and I lost track of him.

Bummer.  


I have to think that the guy still keeps tabs on TMA hopefully he sees us talking about him and he stops by. Hopefully he can shed more light on TMHC (If there is anything else that we don't already know).

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by RoaDiE on 07/22/12 at 17:01:13
I LOVE YOU KIRK BAUM!

Anyone got a pic of him...

no reason. no reason whatsoever.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Zerathustra on 07/22/12 at 19:13:28
Wow, inspiring sentiments here. Makes me feel more thankful I have TMA to go to, I'll never forget my times here, as I have been coming here since before TMB was created as well, to see how the game was coming. I was so young then, and didn't really know what was going on beside a few key members showing up every once in a while. Little did I know they were on the dev team lol. I'll never forget how Harbor City was so far along that I won't hesitate to appreciate the completion of the production process to render the things I love to audiences such as movies, games, art etc. Moments like this definitely help me feel thankful of how strong this fan base is.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Ripzsaur on 07/23/12 at 12:16:43
Yeah definitely. I have been coming here for a long time also... about 6 years I believe? I'm not entirely sure... but the TM fanbase is the best. Even if we are all a little TWISTED. >.> see what I did there?

By the way... Has there been any news on the TMA site being back up?...

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Road-Kill_3197 on 07/23/12 at 22:13:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT1ii2CVOys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2lpDYd-kac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h_YGuKngOY

Here's the dark past.

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Richard5_rocks on 01/28/14 at 20:45:36
Was Sweet Tooth really going to have his head on design? :/

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by zombie99 on 03/30/14 at 05:33:06
did anyone realise that in the suburban terrorlevel in lost has a hidden highway but its impossible to drive on it because its not solid.i tried throwing napalm at it it went through the road :-?

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Coleiosis on 03/09/16 at 22:26:31
If only there was some way we can recreate Harbor City with our own animation programs... My friends and I are currently planning it. :P

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Winters989 on 03/30/16 at 01:26:15
Kinda sucks it was never finished. Sometimes I go back to TM Lost and while playing the levels, just think about what it could have been. I still think Twisted Metal isn't dead, but it surely isn't alive either. Almost sounds like a coma or in a vegetative state. I remember being kind of excited of seeing some footage of Harbor City from a Youtube channel called Dark Scorpius roughly a year ago. I genuinely felt depressed watching it.  :'(

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Springfeel on 08/13/16 at 05:52:26

Surgeon -Rymagician- wrote on 07/08/12 at 23:24:47:
Obliv-

I can see that happening.  I always felt that TMHO had some very TMBish elements to it- from Calypso, to ST Truck, to Grimm.  Makes alot of sense.

I agree that Calypso's car isn't very cool.  I don't like Calypso being a contestant.  Ever.  I honestly wish Sweet Tooth wasn't a contestant either.  Think of how much more badass he would be if he just drove around and killed all of the contestants, but never bothered to show up for his prize.


Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I was just reading through and that sounds hilarious. Thanks for making my night!  ;D [smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: Twisted Metal: Harbor City
Post by Jansen on 02/10/17 at 08:05:43

Springfeel wrote on 08/13/16 at 05:52:26:
Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I was just reading through and that sounds hilarious. Thanks for making my night!  ;D [smiley=laugh.gif]

I gotta thank you for digging it up - it's been a great read.

I've always been kinda fascinated with unreleased or early versions of games, and Harbor City has always been one of the most interesting. One of those games I'd kill to be able to play, along with an early build of Destroy all Humans. It kills me knowing that there are early versions of those games out there, but they won't (or can't) release them.

If Volition can release the unfinished Saints Row: Undercover, why can't other companies do the same? For those who aren't familiar with that story, their video on it is quite interesting. They discuss a lot of things about how they found the build, how they were afraid of showing it at first, and stuff like that.

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